Posted by nobhill on 11/18/10 11:49pm
Msg #361923

California Notaries Can't Explain Documents

In California we have strict Unauthorized Practice of Law (UPL) laws. It is drilled into us very clearly at our Notary classes we are not to wander into the area of explaining documents. We answer the questions for "where", not for what or when.

An agency called me today and wouldn't give me the work because I told them it is unlawful for California notaries to explain documents to the borrower. This is not expected of California notaries whatsoever and no agency has ever asked me such a question except on quizes to weed out people who don't know the law. We have very strict laws in California because this is a huge lawyer state. Lawyers make sure notaries, paralegals and legal document assistants can't trample their territory.

So I just thought I'd make a separate post to clarify California notaries are held to some of the highest standards in the country. We are prohibited from explaining documents because it can open the door to UPL. We answer only "where" questions, not what or when questions. It doesn't matter if we want to or not or what our opinions, dislikes or likes are over the situation. Notaries must follow the law.

Reply by doglover/CA on 11/19/10 12:01am
Msg #361924

I had some borrowers call their loan officer for some questions on the documents. The loan officer( based in another state) asked to speak with me and she said ."You're supposed to explain the documents. You're not doing your job!" I said that I had to be careful not to cross the boundaries into UPL. If I didn't mind being unprofessional I would have directed a few choice words at her.

Reply by kathy/ca on 11/19/10 12:07am
Msg #361925

Are you saying we cant point out WHEN their first payment

due or WHAT their payment/loan amount will be?????

Reply by jba/fl on 11/19/10 12:50am
Msg #361930

OR

that the note and mortgage mean that the BO's are possibly giving up their rights to their kids and grandkids if they default?

Oh, my - where will I get my jollies now?

Get serious nob - this was discussed in an earlier thread today, if I remember correctly, and the general consensus is quite different from what you are alluding. Oh, and get this, you started that thread as well.

Sometimes one must just let go of some ideas.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/19/10 11:16am
Msg #361971

I received a similar call and

when I explained to the company how I handle a signing, they were ok with it.

Perhaps your communication skills need polishing? If you have any doubt about what you can do and not cross the UPL line, get with an attorney who is experienced in the area.

Reply by meganPA on 11/19/10 7:03am
Msg #361936

What about the fact that you're hired as a signing agent

...and not just a notary? As a notary you should not be explaining docs, but as a signing agent you should.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have never received a phone call from a TC or SS that said to me, "Hi, are you available to notarize some documents for a closing?"

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/19/10 7:34am
Msg #361937

So.....

With all the calls you get, they ask you to explain the docs?

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 11/19/10 7:34am
Msg #361938

Explaining the loan vs explaining the docs... isn't that

LO's job????? If I do their job , I'd like to trade my $75, 100, etc fee for theirs. Honestly - 90% of the time, when I bring the docs, it's the first time they've even seen the HUD!! Federal law states the HUD must made available to the BO 24hrs prior to closing - right! SMH & LOL

Reply by PAW on 11/19/10 9:41am
Msg #361962

"Federal law states the HUD must made available to the BO"

>>> Federal law states the HUD must made available to the BO 24hrs prior to closing - right! SMH & LOL <<<

Only if the borrower asks for it. Otherwise, the lender is not obligated to provide the final HUD to the borrower.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/19/10 9:45am
Msg #361963

Re: "Federal law states the HUD must made available to the BO"

That being said, any loan officer worth their weight in gold, requests a copy of the HUD PRIOR TO THE SIGNING TABLE to review with the borrower so there are no surprises. And I love working with the LO who is available during the signing appointment via telephone to answer any questions that arise so they have the opportunity to explain to the borrower.

Everyone is busy these days, better not to have any missteps.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/19/10 2:24pm
Msg #361989

Re: "Federal law states the HUD must made available to the BO"

This is rarity on the signings I get, 90% of the time unable to reach L.O. Signing is the evening on on weekend 100% nada. My .02

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/19/10 7:44am
Msg #361939

After typing responses I'm just going to say this

There are ways to accomplish what's required without committing UPL - you don't "explain" the docs - you "present" them; show them where to find answers to the questions within the package; do NOT answer the dreaded "why" questions - that gets referred to LO or title.

CA is no different than any other state who's addressed the UPL issue - in fact I'd dispute the statement that they're the strictest just based on the fact that notaries can still conduct remote closings, unline in attorney-only states who have said no to this practice - now THOSE states, IMO, are far stricter about UPL than CA, FL or many, many other states.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/19/10 7:45am
Msg #361940

Sorry..."unline" should be "unlike"... n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 11/19/10 8:01am
Msg #361941

?? Msg. 361865. There was good discussion on this. Why

post again? I'm curious, if you interpret CA law that way, then why would you take work as a signing agent in the first place? I have great respects for notary laws, but also know that they don't address the unique role of an NSA. Hugh, who is an attorney, explained the line that shouldn't be crossed. UPL is about "advising" the borrower/client if it is in their best interests, etc.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/19/10 12:40pm
Msg #361975

Re: ?? Msg. 361865. There was good discussion on this. Why

Basically, California is what Hugh described. There may be a few "California idiosyncrasies" that one should be wary of, but it's still pretty broad to where a good SA will not get into any trouble, good being the keyword. That's why I always say if you are not sure, see an attorney experienced in the area, which I am fortunate to have.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/19/10 8:34am
Msg #361945

Wish I had a dime for every time I've said this ...

You can't teach someone off the street how to navigate through a real estate transaction w/ or w/out a mortgage with any kind of proficiency in a few hours or a weekend seminar. Instead, you can teach them to carry a large roll of duct tape to help them keep their mouths closed (No Can Do?), and provide them with very scary images of the furry UPL Monster, which certainly would serve to limit liabilities of both student & instructor.

Who benefits from this?

Reply by Stoli on 11/19/10 9:01am
Msg #361951

There is no such classification as "Signing Agent" in CA. n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/19/10 9:07am
Msg #361953

? I don't know what you mean, Stoli n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 11/19/10 9:17am
Msg #361954

Re: There is no such classification as "Signing Agent" in CA.

If you're referring to notary laws, there isn't a designation in VA law either, or any other state that I know of. It's a "role" or profession we've engaged in, not defined specifically by law!
I know that the SOC in VA doesn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. There are too many gray areas.

Reply by Stoli on 11/19/10 9:26am
Msg #361957

Yes, MW. California SOS does not recognize the

classification of 'Signing Agent'. The classification of 'Signing Agent' was marketed by the NNA, not the State.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/19/10 9:37am
Msg #361961

I think this is typical in all states... n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/20/10 4:15am
Msg #362073

Re: Yes, MW. California SOS does not recognize the

I don't think of it as a "classification", but rather a descriptor of what we do - for lack of a better one. Nothing very official about it, imo.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/19/10 12:59pm
Msg #361978

Gee...imagine an agency trying to separate experience from

otherwise. Who are they? I'd like to go give them 5 stars.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/19/10 1:40pm
Msg #361981

Describing a doc is not "explainin" a doc. It's not UPL to

describe the DOT, for instance, as the doc that is recorded by the county because it's a public record that a property has a mtg.

I throughly disagree with your post. One thing one learns in law school is exactly how NOT to practice law without a license.

We don't give legal advice. We don't interpret the meanings of terms of art. We don't give advice or opinions as to the consequences of signing docs. Describing is not explaining. jmho

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/19/10 1:42pm
Msg #361982

"explaining" a doc. n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/19/10 4:11pm
Msg #361996

If what you say is true about the classes, then its obvious your paranoia of upl is an extension of instructor incompetence...imo.