Posted by Ari/NJ on 11/6/10 8:05am
Msg #359924

Do people really do .....

reverse mortgage for $85.00??? This is what I was offered yesterday. They never called me back after I quoted my fee so someone in my area took it.

Reply by LindaD/NJ on 11/6/10 8:47am
Msg #359925

Ari, similar call yesterday around 5pm.

Reply by Ari/NJ on 11/6/10 8:56am
Msg #359927

Yup, I got it at 4:10pm

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/6/10 10:45am
Msg #359937

Not necessarily. All it means is they found someone maybe only $5 cheaper than you quoted.
Or possibly even got tired of hearing the same fee quoted and just went with the last person who quoted that. Not saying that they didn't find an idiot; just saying that it shouldn't be automatically assumed that they did.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/6/10 11:17am
Msg #359940

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

I might take a reverse for that price if it was very local, one person closing, and I would still make $$. May be an idiot, but I am an idiot with $85 more dollars in my pocket.

Reverse are many times the easiest closings of all, prior to close, they have to disclose for sure what they are signing up for (not the usual LO left me a message), remember that they usually already had u or someone else do the RESPA with them and they know they have to sign a stack of papers. Usually very minimal notarization involved, easy cheesy IMO.

Just me I guess, nobody else on here accepts $85.00 for any closing.

Reply by desktopfull on 11/6/10 12:10pm
Msg #359944

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

$85.00 in your pocket maybe, but it's the expenses for supplies, vehicle useage, printing, commission costs, E&O, Bond, etc. that count. It isn't $85.00 profit, Jim. $15 to $20 for 2 to 3 hours work, hmmm........., why not work for McD's.

Reply by wendy_wa on 11/6/10 12:20pm
Msg #359947

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

if it took 2 or 3 hrs? - but my average rev mortgage is 35-40 min w/client plus travel and other costs + $0.90 in paper and $1.00 in toner -- vehicle use, commission, E&O, bond -- all cost of doing business and tax deductible, not like you weren't paying for it anyway or like you have to pay for it per ea. $85 is a little low, usually I ask for $100 - but if it was less than 10 miles away I would take it

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 11/6/10 1:23pm
Msg #359952

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

I charge $150-175+ for a RM. They are larger packages and if you are printing 2 sets you are spending more than $.90 in paper. They take longer than a normal Refi loan signing if you are explaining the paperwork and due to the age of the signers on average.

The borrowers are still being charged anywhere from $200-$350, on average, for the service of having a NSA show up for them on these loans. IMO, $85 for a RM is insulting and well below a professional fee offer. Will I accept less than my $150-$175? If the circumstances are right, but they will never be right for me to accept $85. I would have to do 2-3 for that low ball fee just to earn the same profit.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/7/10 5:56am
Msg #360030

totally agree with Moneyman on this one...that $85 is NOT

going to make me profitable at all. And by the time you have that cash in your pocket, its what 30 days out or longer??

I've learned over the years that its ingenuous to believe that any type of transaction is 'simple'.

I'm so tired of getting calls from SS saying, "oh, but its just a simple refi, etc etc ".

These types of loan transactions do take SO much longer at the table as most seniors are very worrisome about what they're signing, and because of this, read everything! (not that I blame them).

Not to mention as Moneyman mentioned before, their age and ability to sign might slow things down considerably. I once did a reverse mortgage closing where the signer was 85, very spry mentally knew what they were signing, but could not hold the pen steady to write their name legible. The closing took 4 hours!

Having said all of this, so why again, would $85 be acceptable for this or ANY closing again?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/6/10 3:39pm
Msg #359975

I much prefer to leave the name-calling out of this. But imo, you're kind of glossing over a few items here. You are always investing much more time than just what is spent at the table. It takes time to print docs, time to get there, time to process paperwork, do admin work, etc. (Hopefully, not time to chase down payment... )

As for "paying for it anyway", I'm not sure what you mean by that. The paper and toner, of course, does get used up "per ea." There's also the additional wear and tear on your printer and car every time you do another assignment. That means you'll be replacing tires and changing oil - let along buying a new car - sooner than you would be otherwise. That holds true for your printer, and any other needed equipment, as well.

And where's the money supposed to come from for all the stuff you're "paying for anyway"? Or are you subsidizing your business from other income? The cost of doing business should be factored in to the fees you accept for every signing and include not only enough to cover ALL of these costs (and taxes), but have enough left over for you to make a reasonable profit. Otherwise, why would you be doing this? For fun??

Reply by desktopfull on 11/6/10 5:17pm
Msg #359995

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

So you don't count the time for printing, confirming appointments, driving to & from appointment, driving to drop at UPS or Fed Ex, every closing is between 2 to 3 hrs. It isn't just the time with the borrower and reverse mtgs take even longer, especially if they have RA, which is the case with many of the RM's I've done.

Reply by wendy_wa on 11/6/10 6:15pm
Msg #360000

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

how much time does it take to print docs and call the borrower to confirm, 5-10 minutes total? I guess maybe I am just more efficient or have a faster printer. For me, I said I think it is a little low - but I like to work. I wish I could charge what I charged 3-4 or more yrs ago, but if I do, I stay home. Supply and demand I guess. In 2002, 2003, 2004 etc I got $200 for a single edoc refi within 20 miles - now no one pays that. So I adjust to stay in demand. Some of my RM signers are physically slower but I just make sure we stay on task -- explain docs? NO WAY! That is not my job. I have the knowledge and experience to do so - have been a realtor in several states and a LO, but it is not the job of the notary and causes more trouble than it is worth. Most of my RM, I was the SA for the RESPA, so I am in and out in no time. I mean, to each their own. I agreed the fee was low - said I would take it if it were close by, and in turn would likely continue to get more and more business from the SS or TC. I don't drop docs - that's a huge waste of my time. FedEx and UPS come to my house everyday for pick ups. I don't do fax backs - but no one asks me to anymore. If you don't need the work then don't take the appointment.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/7/10 2:42pm
Msg #360068

DTF, if u spend 2-3 hours on a closing u must charge big $$$ n/m

Reply by bagger on 11/6/10 12:24pm
Msg #359948

Re: Do people really do ..... Idiot huh?

Ok, so you take this $85.00 job that's gonna take 2-3 hours, and then You get a call for that same time period for $125.00.

This means that YOU personally just lost $45.00, AND you have helped lower the prices of every Notary in the business. Great business move.

This line of thinking always reminds me of the story of the recent Harvard MBA.
In his first meeting, the CEO is complaining that the competition is killing them and wants answers. Mr. Harvard MBA pipes up with "let's lower our prices BELOW our costs, and that will drive out the competition."
The CEO says, and then just how do we make up for the loss of the per unit costs?
Mr. Harvard says "Simple, we will make it up in volume!"

Mr. Harvard was soon looking for a job.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 11/6/10 1:25pm
Msg #359954

Richard, some people will still not get it. Great example! n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 11/6/10 10:52am
Msg #359938

Re: Do people really do ...../...NO! n/m

Reply by Teddog/CO on 11/6/10 11:49am
Msg #359942

I'll second that motion Les.

Good grief! I've been offered a screaming $50.00 for a refi. At those prices it doesn't pay to pull out of the driveway. Especially if the "sweet hearts" don't pay you. I am NOT laughing.
You just can't make a profit at these low-ball fees.

Finished and stepping down from my soap box

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 1:31pm
Msg #359957

Re: Just Say No

Our business works on various principles. If you feel it's too low a fee, just say no. When you hold yourself in higher esteem for your services and not with the mentality of a desperate begger, another higher paying job will come along.

Reply by mwm143 on 11/6/10 2:09pm
Msg #359968

The only thing I take into consideration when

accepting or refusing any offer is whether or not I will meet my own personal criteria for making a profit. I do not consider other notary's business models into my own. So for those who take $75 closings and are satisfied with the profit then go for it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/7/10 12:28am
Msg #360025

General notary work is not lucrative in many states as it is in CA and Louisiana so loan signing work is all some other state's NSA have. In CA, we can charge up to $10 per signature notarized for each document, plus a travel fee (which has no mandate). I do three times the general notary work than loan signings which allows me to maintain the NSA fee I had established three years ago. And by maintaining such a professional fee - I do business with professionals and not mickey mouse operations. After the initial call to offer the loan signing, the only other call from them is to let me know the docs are ready.

I'm not called to ask if I've confirmed with the borrower.....or if I've printed docs....or if I've started my car.......or if I arrived at the signing........or if I've finished the signing........ or if I've shipped the docs.......no handholding, no babysitting, no nonsense - no headaches from the professional companies.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/10 1:09pm
Msg #360064

There's a larger picture that I think is often overlooked ..

Every time you accept a particular fee, it influences the market - both in your own area, and in a smaller way/slower way, the whole industry.

If you are in an area where you have zero competition - I envy you. =)

If you are in an area where you DO have healthy competition - if you condition your acceptance of less-than-your-profit-margin fees to "only if it's very close by" or "only if I have nothing going on for that time" or "only {insert any other condition}" - it STILL influences your area's market. The market doesn't CARE if you only did it for {insert reason}. If you condition lower fees, assume that your competition will, also. Market slides down ....down ...down.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/7/10 2:57pm
Msg #360069

Re: There's a larger picture that I think is often overlooked ..

I do not think that by accepting a particular fee, it influences the market. It may for that SS/TC but not for the market.

Different companies offer different fees to notaries based on their preferred profit margin..we as independent business owners have to decide what we will accept as our profitable fee.

I can close a single person reverse mortgage in less than 30 minutes, another 30 for travel and we can even add another 30 for print, prep, confirmation, completion etc...

Now I will say $5.00 for gas, toner and paper leaving me $80.00 for 1.5 hours of work...I can live with $53.00 an hour and of course I will claim the mileage, notary fee, paper and toner from my taxes.

I also agree that I have and would love to always make $150-$175 for a reverse mortgage closing...fact is that does not happen to often any longer and if I do not accept the $85, then someone else will!

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/10 3:25pm
Msg #360072

I don't make that assumption, Jim ...

You are probably RIGHT that someone will take the lower offers - especially in an area with a lot of competition; but it's still an assumption.

You could also assume that they'll keep calling until they figure out nobody is biting, and then they're up against a brick wall. I DO assume that they will NOT go back and give that job to someone who turned down their low fee ...they'll just hit a wall & cave to the next person.

I'm not above a little bit of conspiracy theory - that simply calling x-number of people in an area, offering low, and taking the market price with the 'x-th' call you make WILL have an effect on the market. It will make people THINK that all they can get is a low price.

Just something to chew on ...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/7/10 3:26pm
Msg #360073

Re: There's a larger picture that I think is often overlooked ..

Maybe I need to rethink my style or maybe it's differences in notary requirements from state to state, but I don't see how you routinely can get through even a single person RM refi in 30 minutes. Do you tell them "You hold the pen and I'll move the paper"? [jk] Seriously, though, do you just flow paper past them saying "sign here", "sign here" without saying anything about what they're signing?? (I'd really like to know, 'cause mine take a whole lot longer!)

for example, I find it takes seniors (and often others too), a few minutes to just get settled. Even though you remind them to have their IDs ready, that isn't always going to happen. they may not be able to move very quickly to begin with, then they have to find their glasses, offer you something to drink, etc., etc. And just plain old common courtesy involves at least a tiny bit of chit chat before they start signing, to say nothing of checking IDs and reviewing some basic how-to's before they put the pen to the paper.

And you leave out of your equation the non-signing specific expenses and overhead, so you can't fairly compare that to $53 an hour someone would make on a job. These additional expenses have been talked about too often for me to go into them all again, but that should include something for the intangibles, too. For example, the last minute cancellations and reschedules when you've turned down other work and the time for other necessary admin work that isn't directly related to a particular signing, (e.g. bookkeeping, collections, bank runs, time for car repairs, shopping for supplies, etc.) I suspect that there are very few who are truthfully able to say they have eight hours a day of paid time on a consistent basis.

I think Renee makes a good point.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/7/10 3:33pm
Msg #360074

I agree....I don't understand how

anyone can get through a package of loan docs with a single signer in 30 minutes....and Janet, as to this: "Do you tell them "You hold the pen and I'll move the paper"? [jk] Seriously, though, do you just flow paper past them saying "sign here", "sign here" without saying anything about what they're signing?? " you may have been "j/k" but I'm thinking there's more truth there than we realize or than we'd like to know....

I'm minimum one hour at the table and more often 1.25-1.5 hours - full packages, 120-140 pages.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/7/10 9:21pm
Msg #360099

Re: I agree....I don't understand how

I keep the paper flowing, no time for them to set down pen. I explain every doc of importance, note, RTC, TIL, HUD and a few others....those are the ones off top of my head that require detailed explanation.

Most docs can be explained as they are signing and usually I am already explaining the next doc before they pull pen from previous sheet, W9, 4506T, Name Aff., would be prime examples.

The multi page docs, 1003, mortgage/DOT and so on can easily be explained as they sign the 4-20 pages.

I also almost always prep docs before I leave home, rubber stamp, fill in dates, state & county etc... and all I have to do is sign and emboss the few docs that require it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/7/10 8:13pm
Msg #360091

Re: There's a larger picture that I think is often overlooked ..

<<<Now I will say $5.00 for gas, toner and paper leaving me $80.00 for 1.5 hours of work...I can live with $53.00 an hour and of course I will claim the mileage, notary fee, paper and toner from my taxes.>>>

What about marketing and advertising costs? Bonds and insurance? Excess wear and tear on vehicle and equipment? Invoicing and shipping?

I agree with the others who wonder how you can complete a RM (or any loan signing) in 30 minutes or less.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/7/10 10:45pm
Msg #360106

There's NOT larger picture that I think is often overlooked

" What about marketing and advertising costs? Bonds and insurance? Excess wear and tear on vehicle and equipment? Invoicing and shipping?"

Okay, I will add another dollar for above. 50-75 closings per month...let's go with 50 x 12 months = 600 closings a year. Above fees do not cost me $600/year for the 1-4 year out of pocket expenses you are referring to. Vehicles wear out whether u drive back and forth to 9-5 or doing NSA work, difference is we get to claim mileage and 9-5 does not.

If u have not seen larger picture than u are a newbie...Totally disagree still.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/8/10 4:47am
Msg #360112

You're right, Jim ..

You said "I do not think that by accepting a particular fee, it influences the market. It may for that SS/TC but not for the market."

Correct. If you only had one client that you went low for, that's not a very influencial factor on the market. I'd be surprised if that were the case, though - so multiply that influence on the market x's every client you do this for. Then exponentially factor the influence on the market by every NSA in your area who is ALSO influencing the market in this manner.

That is the point I was aiming for.