Posted by nobhill on 11/6/10 1:42pm
Msg #359961

Four States Require Witnesses for Mortgages and Deeds

FYI - there are four states that require two witness signatures when you notarize a deed or mortgage in these states:

Florida - 2 witnesses* for deeds** but not mortages
Connecticut - 2 witnesses* for deeds and mortgages
Georgia - 2 witnesses* required for deeds and security deeds
Louisiana - 2 witnesses required for "authentic acts"
South Carolina - 2 witnesses for deeds

*Notary may be one of the witnesses
** for deeds executed by an individual

Best protocol is to get the state where the property is from the agency or title company ASAP so you can let the borrower know either one or two witnesses will need to sign.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/6/10 1:54pm
Msg #359963

I'm not so sure it's our responsibility for instructing signers on what must be down, seems TC needs to provide that info to borrowers. It is important to know however. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm incorrect. Thanks for the post/information.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 2:04pm
Msg #359966

Hi James: I got this info from the NNA webnair archive. The NNA claims it's our responsibility to know and to let the signer know prior to the appointment. They say it's part of our job just as it is to let them know what ID's they'll need, etc.

http://www.nationalnotary.org/webinars/archives/

Reply by James Dawson on 11/6/10 2:33pm
Msg #359971

They don't carry to much weight on this site

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/6/10 5:31pm
Msg #359998

Do not rely on info from any association to protect

you legally.

You rely on California law. If in doubt, you check with the California SOS office and and attorney. Not a notary association of any kind.

It's not our job to know the laws of other states. And if you are giving information on what someone needs if they are buying or refinancing property in this or another state, then you are running into the UPL statutes of California. You can only tell them what they need for ID purposes as outlined in our handbook. Other than that, you are putting yourself at legal risk, and if the information that any association gave you gets you into any legal trouble, they will be nowhere to be found, they will just send you their disclaimers.

There is no national association that is the final word for notary law. That is set by the state that grants you your commission.

Reply by Art_PA on 11/6/10 6:23pm
Msg #360001

Re: Do not rely on info from any association to protect

It is not UPL to tell a borrower that they need to have witnesses present when the loan is on a property in another state. It is your responsibility to do the job right the first time. When you are notarizing documents relating to property not in your state you should know what is required.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 6:40pm
Msg #360004

Re: Do not rely on info from any association to protect

LOL, I see this thread is going deeper into a rabbit hole.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/6/10 8:38pm
Msg #360011

Art, I have already danced this waltz ...

Yes, as far as the rules in my state of California I can tell them what is needed.

As far as other states rules, if something is going to record in another state it is up to the people that hire me to tell me what is needed. I do not know the law in the 49 other states. You really know the rules for the other 49 states in the union? Or do you get what is required in your signing from the people that hire you and relay it to the BO?

My attorney is the final word here, and in a state that is litigation happy, I will take his advice, and his advice it to get instructions from the people who hire me and not think I know the laws of other states. In CA, I cannot even suggest whether the customers needs a jurat or a acknowledgement. That is UPL in California ......

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 8:49pm
Msg #360012

Re: Art, I have already danced this waltz ...

The State of California also dictates what we can notarize for other states. State law says we may notarize another state's acknowledgment notarial wording, but not a jurat. As far as attorneys are concerned, just like everything else they can be wrong. I've worked with enough attorneys to know.

I guess what being a notary is teaching me is I might as well go review the laws again myself and not expect others to provide me the information. If I have any questions I should ask but not prior to reading the law myself.

Reply by John/CT on 11/6/10 6:26pm
Msg #360002

Signings for properties in other "Witness States"

I agree with you, Glenn, re: UPL. But when I get an assignment for a property in another "Witness State", I get back to my assigning company and ask them if the borrower(s) have been informed of the requirement for a second witness. If they're not sure or have not, then I ask them if they want me to so inform the borrower(s). If yes, I tell them to send me an e-mail confirming that. This way, it is another instruction (e.g., collecting photcopies of ID) that I'm asked to follow. Just tryin' to do the right thing.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/6/10 9:45pm
Msg #360016

Re: Signings for properties in other "Witness States"

Seems to me whether or not it is UPL depends on what you do with the information. This is probably splitting hairs, but I think it's an important distinction. IMO, if we make a decision on our own about what is needed, based on the location of the property, that's probably UPL - unless it's our own state, in which case we should absolutely know.

However, if we happen to have knowledge that leads us to know that we should inquire about witness requirements from our client, then I think that's a good thing - and not UPL.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 6:45pm
Msg #360005

Re: Do not rely on info from any association to protect

I don't believe letting a borrower know they need a witness, due to the signature block indicating so, is UPL. UPL is more specifically described as taking a special circumstance of the facts and applying it to the law. This is a general issue related to signature blocks much as it is when we are given notarial wording to determine what kind of notarization it is.

I'm a legal document assistant in California and it's been repeatedly defined what UPL by lawyers through the California Association of Legal Document Assistant. Pointing out to the borrower, they will need a witness due to the witness signature blocks on the Mortgage isn't UPL. Could you imagine being prosecuted for such a thing?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/6/10 1:56pm
Msg #359964

"Florida - 2 witnesses* for deeds** but not mortages
** for deeds executed by an individual"

By individual? ANY deed of conveyance in the State of Florida requires two witnesses.

By statute, witnesses are not required on mortgages - however it is to be noted that some counties have implemented a witness requirement (Dixie County for example - two witnesses required on mortgages encumbering county in Dixie County) - there may be others.

Cheryl, what is your source for this information?

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 2:02pm
Msg #359965

Hi - My source is the National Notary Association's webnair presentation. I downloaded the materials from the Webnair archive. I wrote the information from one of the slides they provided.

http://www.nationalnotary.org/webinars/archives/

According to the NNA presentation, as far as having to arrange for witnesses it's our responsibility to let the borrower know prior to the appointment.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/6/10 2:05pm
Msg #359967

Well, as for Florida, if that's how they presented it

they're in error (no surprise)...

I'd just check with title on any out-of-state property I close as far as recording/witness requirements are concerned.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 2:21pm
Msg #359969

Re: Well, as for Florida, if that's how they presented it

LOL, you mean I can't even trust the NNA for my questions? I'm shocked.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/6/10 2:23pm
Msg #359970

Ummm...no, Cheryl,,...ya can't...search here for NNA

or XYZ and read, read, read...you'll see...

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 3:22pm
Msg #359973

Re: The NNA hotline is very helpful though

I thought they were every notary's go to for information and updates??

Reply by MichiganAl on 11/6/10 3:52pm
Msg #359977

Don't believe it

They are NOT the final word on notary practices or law, each state's handbook is. They are a FOR PROFIT business trying to position themselves as the authority so you'll renew your membership, buy their books and supplies, pay for their background check, and support the legislation that most serves their purpose. They are not. They're wrong often enough that most of us have learned to question or verify everything they say. Don't drink their Kool-aid.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/6/10 4:05pm
Msg #359982

"Don't drink their Kool-aid." Love it!! ;>) n/m

Reply by Alz on 11/6/10 3:53pm
Msg #359978

Run Forest, run..... n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/6/10 4:04pm
Msg #359981

Not even close; Go to your state's authority, SOS here in CA n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/6/10 4:22pm
Msg #359985

nope, but you can call and get real good knock knock jokes! n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/6/10 7:24pm
Msg #360006

I learned long ago not to pet that dog. Alerting the

borrowers to all manner of things is our responsibility - the need for current ID; the need for a NBS (non-borrowing spouse) to be at the table; the $ amount due and in what form; to name a few. These are part of the Confirmation process, and just plain common sense.

Personally, my initial experiences with NNA was unsatisfactory, and a second chance did not vindicate their mis-information, so, I just don't pet that dog anymore.

To each his own, though.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/6/10 4:20pm
Msg #359984

best protocol is to NOT worry about the above as it is

NOT our concern as notary signing agents. The above is or should be predetermined by the TC and the appropriate doc should be supplied to us. If it is not, then NOT our concern as all we do is to ensure that the docs are properly witnessed and executed. We not give those types of instructions to the BO's, that is TC or lender's job.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 4:27pm
Msg #359986

Re: best protocol is to NOT worry about the above as it is

Well I've seen witness lines before in out of state documents and have just ignored them thinking it was an "option" not a requirement. I didn't learn about the four states until yesterday. I've never had any complaints about my not having witnesses signed so I was lucky it wasn't in the required states.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/6/10 4:30pm
Msg #359987

may I ask how you learned this? a NNA class perhaps? n/m

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 4:34pm
Msg #359988

Re: may I ask how you learned this? a NNA class perhaps?

I provided a link in this thread to the NNA webnairs.

http://www.nationalnotary.org/webinars/archives/

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/6/10 4:36pm
Msg #359990

oh, I pass. But I did find your oct blog interesting...;) n/m

Reply by Virginia/PA on 11/7/10 2:20pm
Msg #360067

Re: best protocol is to NOT worry about the above as it is

And when the documents get back to title they see that the proper witnessing was not performed and they look up someone in the mail room and ask them to witness the documents. Nobody is the wiser that the witness(es) were not present since the borrowers never see the documents again.

Reply by Art_PA on 11/7/10 4:55pm
Msg #360079

Re: best protocol is to NOT worry about the above as it is

Not true. Some years ago, the Bankruptcy Court in Ohio voided mortgages which where were witnessed by people who were not present. This only becomes an issue when it becomes an issue. Of course the notary would not be responsible, as would be the case if the notary backdated.

Reply by John/CT on 11/6/10 6:10pm
Msg #359999

States Requiring Witnesses for Mortgages and Deeds

To expand on your matrix, per our friend, PAW:

South Carolina: Notary MAY be a witness
Georgia: Notary MUST be a witness
Louisiana: Notary CANNOT be a witness

Inasmuch as Connecticut is a "Witness State", I always inform the borrower(s) during the confirmation call. In most cases the borrower(s) did not know this beforehand, and not to inform them could result in trouble later on. On the other hand, I find it most frustrating when the borrower(s) tell me, "The other notary didn't require a witness the last time we refinanced". Clearly, outright fraud when the "other notary" had their spouse (or whomever) sign off later under the statement, "Signed ... in the presence of". Grrrr

Reply by parkerc/ME on 11/6/10 7:37pm
Msg #360007

As has been repeated here many times. Do not rely on the NNA for what should and should not be done. NNA says a notary can also be a witness on Mortgages/Deeds. In Maine, a notary cannot also be a witness to a document they are notarizing. So much for NNA misleading guidance in this as well as many other issues.

Reply by nobhill on 11/6/10 8:04pm
Msg #360010

Well, I appreciate the info since the NNA isn't the gov't, but I don't know where you came up with the state of Maine info. I didn't list that in my initial post at all.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/6/10 9:19pm
Msg #360014

I think she was just giving an example... n/m

Reply by parkerc/ME on 11/7/10 10:56am
Msg #360049

Right. Example of why not to rely on NNA for direction. n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/6/10 11:24pm
Msg #360023

Witnesses for deeds are real estate laws.....not notary laws. It is up to the TC to inform the NSA and the borrowers of the real estate laws. IMHO it is also the TCs responsibility to work with the borrowers in arranging these witnesses.

Reply by nobhill on 11/7/10 1:44am
Msg #360026

That's interesting but we're also loan signing agents responsible for understanding certain general information about the documents we're presenting to the borrower. I see no problem denoting a witness signature block and making sure the borrower knows they'll need a witness. After all it's regarding a signature, what we notaries are most familiar with. Sometimes we're required to sign as witnesses which brings us even more into the equation.

I won't be telling them the law, merely pointing out the signature block. I can direct them to the Title company for any questions about the specifics. That's what I plan to do.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/7/10 5:32am
Msg #360028

Off topic, but this discussion clearly serves as one of

many examples, if not reasons, as to why the NSA profession is clearly NOT on its way 'out the door'. And why a notary public specializing in real estate and loan transactions, ergo an NSA is a MOST needed profession.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 11/7/10 9:01am
Msg #360037

Re: Off topic, but this discussion clearly serves as one of

Please elaborate Cari, what about this particular thread leads you to believe it proves the NSA is essential to closings.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/10 12:58pm
Msg #360061

I didn't catch that segue here, either. n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/7/10 5:38pm
Msg #360083

I was reminded of how NSA's are much more valuable in

real estate closings in lieu of general notary publics, quite simply because not all general notary publics know what a mortgage or deed is, let alone, know how many signatures are required and/or if they themselves can act or serve as one of the witnesses needed. Only an nsa who either thru training or experience (or both) will know these answers.

And no one can deny the fact that nsa's are hired first and foremost, in lieu of a general notary public for these types of transactions. That's just a fact. But this is definitely one topic that should be discussed in detail perhaps another day....

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/7/10 6:50am
Msg #360034

That's the thing though - just because there are witness lines does not mean witnesses are required....Example: Mortgages - they are boilerplate forms and all include lines for witnesses' signatures - but witnesses are not required on a mortgage in FL. In this case, seeing witness lines should not translate into "witnesses required".

Reply by PAW on 11/7/10 7:05am
Msg #360035

Amen! n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 11/7/10 10:08am
Msg #360044

Ditto! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/7/10 12:55pm
Msg #360060

?? Isn't it five states?

Regardless, the most used form is the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac Uniform Security Instrument - and I do believe that includes Witness signature lines regardless of which state's version it is.

It's a simple enough thing to check, not like anyone sees any great volume of out of state deals and just about any county/state I ever checked had their recording requirements on-line.

Reply by Lavergne Manuel on 11/7/10 1:58pm
Msg #360065

Re: ?? Isn't it five states?

Alabama is not a witness state, the lines are there but we never use them unless requested.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/7/10 5:52pm
Msg #360084

same goes for IL mortgages..excellent point Linda! n/m