Posted by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 10:31am
Msg #360128

HELP NAME ON ID DOES NOT MATCH DOCS

Names on loan pkg are John J Doe and Jane Jones Doe, name on her DL is Jane Sue Jones. TC is saying it is okay for her to sign whatever the docs say, because the name aff will cover it and be recorded. She also claims the Calif notary had no problem with this on a previous closing. She never took husband's last name and only signs it on legal docs, (She claims).....

Reply by Teresa/FL on 11/8/10 10:50am
Msg #360129

In Florida, I would have her sign Jane Sue Jones AKA Jane Jones Doe.

In the notarial certificate I would show "Jane Sue Jones, who produced identification in the name Jane Sue Jones and represented to me she is also known as Jane Jones Doe."

I realize the Alabama notary statutes may not give you guidance regarding name discrepancies, but this is how Florida handles it. Do you have time to contact your SOS to get help?

BTW, I don't believe a CA notary would not have a problem with this...

Reply by rengel/CA on 11/8/10 10:53am
Msg #360130

As a CA NP I would sure have a problem with that!

It would be illegal for a California NP to notarize that.

But.... TCs and SSs will tell you ANYTHING to get it signed. That is why we have to know our state notary laws inside and out! Do not let a non-notary tell you what the law is, know it for yourself. This will keep you out of a lot of trouble.

My .02

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 10:53am
Msg #360131

If she doesn't have a government issued picture ID that matches the docs, I would NOT notarize it. The name aff has nothing to do with the identification of the signer for notarizing purposes, it means nothing to us. It is only name variations that came up from the credit check of the borrower.

Reply by Stoli on 11/8/10 10:55am
Msg #360133

Use two credible witnesses only. Do not notarize. n/m

Reply by Stoli on 11/8/10 10:56am
Msg #360134

I should have said to use credible witnesses in California n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 1:05pm
Msg #360165

I don't think this type of scenario qualifies under

the CW statutes in CA - it has to be "difficult if not impossible" for them to get adequate ID - and it doesn't appear that's the case. CW's aren't supposed to be used for convenience sake.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 1:08pm
Msg #360168

Should add here in KNOW it wouldn't here in FL.. n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/8/10 1:13pm
Msg #360172

So tired of hearing of CA notaries abusing the CW system

No, not all notaries in California do this, but I see it come up FREQUENTLY on this board and others, that California notaries act like credible witnesses can be used under a variety of circumstances. I read all the time that the name on the ID doesn't match, so they use a CW. Married woman never changed her name on her D/L, so they use a CW. The license is expired so they use a CW.

In the OP, the signer HAS identification, just in a different name. A credible witness can NOT be used in that circumstance. CWs in California, Florida, and many other states, are reserved for instances when the person does not possess valid identification and it would be difficult or impossible to obtain identification (such as bedridden seniors at a nursing facility). CWs are not for those who never got around to changing their license after getting married. They also can't be used because somebody has been too lazy to renew their expired license. It is not "difficult or impossible" for them to renew it. If they spend a day at the DMV, voila, it will be taken care of. That does not qualify as "difficult or impossible". It's sheer laziness, on the part of the signer AND the notary.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/8/10 1:14pm
Msg #360174

Re: I don't think this type of scenario qualifies under

I was going to post this too. I don't people read the "qualifiers" for using creditable witnesses. If they did, they would see it's very hard to meet all the criteria for that.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/8/10 1:17pm
Msg #360175

Re: I don't think this type of scenario qualifies under

Sorry...should read I don't think.....

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/8/10 11:08am
Msg #360139

Credible witnesses OK in AL??? Doubt it but don't know. n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/8/10 11:07am
Msg #360137

Know I'm gonna take a lot of heat for this, but.... neither AR nor AL are CA, so if "I" am satisfied that person is who they say they are, I can notarize. In this instance, I'd want to see their Marriage cert....and if it says Jane Sue Jones & John J. Doe are, in fact, married, I'd probably be satisfied (assuming it all hangs together and looks reasonable). I'd also like to see something in the name of Jane ..... Doe... maybe a health insurance card or some such.
It's a 'preponderance of evidence' thing.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/8/10 11:29am
Msg #360146

I agree with Lee/AR on the "preponderance of evidence thing." There are many cases where it comes in real handy - like when you're right on the cusp of ID - but need to push it just a notch, if you know what I mean. But in this case when she's already said Doe is not her last name, I would never notarize her signature as Doe. She's simply not Doe - and all the marriage certificates, identifying witnesses, health insurance cards, etc. aren't going to change that. Why would anybody go there?

Reply by John/CT on 11/8/10 11:52am
Msg #360154

I'm also with you Lee, re: "satisfied the person is who ...

they say they are", based on their "official" marriage license. I have a letter from a staff attorney at the SOS Office, saying if I am satisified the signer is the person named on the dox, I'm good to go.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/8/10 12:49pm
Msg #360161

We ID people, we don't "match" ID to title vesting.

I agree 100% Lee.

Set me on fire.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/8/10 1:37pm
Msg #360192

Re: We ID people, we don't "match" ID to title vesting.

One of the advantages of practicing in a state that leaves some discretion to the NP is that on occasion he/she can do exactly what Brenda says: Identify the signer -- sometimes by a preponderance of the evidence. In Texas, the law is sufficiently flexible that most of the time we can achieve that fundamental purpose. If I can establish a chain from one name to another, I proceed with the notarization.

Perhaps, if there were more professionalism in our ranks, lawmakers would feel comfortable leaving such matters to our discretion.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 1:33pm
Msg #360184

Thanks Lee...AL has zero laws for ID.

She did not want to take her husbands name and said she only signs legal docs that way. I personally think she should add it to the DL. I did see marriage certificate and DL info matches everything but married name.

If AL had some laws in place, I would have been more careful...but I was really shocked when she said that a CA notary allowed her to sign that way with no ID covering the signed name and no CW or any question about difference between the two names.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/8/10 1:40pm
Msg #360195

I believe you but not her...we have a journal for one. That would not look good if we had to present it and the notary put in the name to match the Docs and not the ID she used.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 1:45pm
Msg #360197

Question for Jim/AL

Did the marriage license have 'Sue' AND 'Doe' on it?

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 2:27pm
Msg #360211

Re: Question for Jim/AL---YES it did n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/8/10 4:30pm
Msg #360257

I totally agree with Lee & Hugh! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/8/10 7:57pm
Msg #360282

<<<Know I'm gonna take a lot of heat for this, but.... neither AR nor AL are CA, so if "I" am satisfied that person is who they say they are, I can notarize.>>>

Why would you take heat for doing as YOUR state allows? Makes no sense that anyone would give you heat for following YOUR states rules.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/8/10 11:23am
Msg #360145

Jim: You can only follow your state's laws. If your state says that whatever the TC is telling you to do is correct, then go for it.

In CA, it would be a slam dunk dead deal for me. But I don't doubt that what the TC is telling you about the previous CA notary is true - esp. if it were a TC notary - they'll notarize anything - with or without ID. They don't care. Than we ICs are left dealing with their messes on subsequent transactions. In the example you gave, she signs with her husband's last name, whicn she never took, only on legal docs? It's not even her name. I'm pretty liberal with the use of credible identifying witnesses (are they legal in AL?) - but I wouldn't use them in this case because she's already acknowledged that Doe is not her name. I wouldn't go here with a 10-foot pole - or even 20 feet. Then again, I know nothing about what AL notary law allows.

Reply by kathy/ca on 11/8/10 12:04pm
Msg #360157

I agree with Goldgirl 100%!!!!! n/m

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 2:28pm
Msg #360213

Re: I agree with Goldgirl 100%!!!!!

Was not a CA TC notary..it was just a notary doing a closing for a TC, like I did today.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/8/10 1:00pm
Msg #360162


I think you are identifying the signer NOT the Docs. TC may say yes you can do it but what name are you going to put on your Ack/Jurat. ? How many times have you seen the County Clerk reject the filing because the names didn't match. Just my .02

Reply by paaz on 11/8/10 11:37am
Msg #360149

Re: What would you tell the judge?

When I wonder what to do, I simply ask myself - What would I tell the judge if he asked how I identified this person. Then I ask would the Secretary of State back me that this is notarial law?

Hope this helps!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 1:02pm
Msg #360163

I haven't ready all the posts yet...but I will

but I just want to say this line drives me nuts!! " because the name aff will cover it "

When, oh when will companies learn that the name aff does NOT cover notary identification.

Ugh

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 2:31pm
Msg #360216

Re: I haven't ready all the posts yet...but I will

Agreed Linda..I do know they will tell us what they need to in order to suit themselves. And name aff is helpful, but not reason for most of us to ignore ID.

Reply by James Dawson on 11/8/10 1:08pm
Msg #360169

Valid ID from CA notary handbook 2010

A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary
public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents, if the
identification document is current or has been issued within five years (Civil Code section
1185(b)(3) & (4)):
1. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the California Department of Motor
Vehicles;
2. A United States passport;
3. Other California-approved identification card, consisting of any one of the following,
provided that it also contains a photograph, description of the person, signature of the person,
and an identifying number:
(a) A passport issued by a foreign government, provided that it has been stamped by the U.S.
Immigration and Naturalization Service or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services;
(b) A driver’s license issued by another state or by a Canadian or Mexican public agency
authorized to issue driver’s licenses;
(c) An identification card issued by another state;
(d) A United States military identification card with the required photograph, description of
the person, signature of the person, and an identifying number. (Some military identification
cards do not contain all the required information.);
(e) An inmate identification card issued by the California Department of Corrections and
Rehabilitation, if the inmate is in custody; or
(f) An employee identification card issued by an agency or office of the State of California,
or an agency or office of a city, county, or city and county in California.

In short a Marriage certificate, Walmart card, etc will not do. LOL

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/8/10 1:20pm
Msg #360177

Nothing in FL law says ID has to match documents

Page 61 of the current Governor's Ref. Manual for Notaries recommends the following certificate for use when the name on the ID does not match the name on the document:

“The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of ________, 20__, by Mary Smith, who represented to me that she was formerly known as Mary Jones, and who provided a Florida driver license, No. 123 45 678 890 in the name of Mary Smith as identification.”

The manual also recommends that "You may also want to include information such as the date of birth, expiration date, or physical description."

The manual states that we CAN view supporting documentation regarding the name change, but it is not required: "You may always provide additional information in your certificate, especially if it helps to clarify the circumstances. You may also want to include information about supporting documentation concerning the name change or additional identification cards, if available, in your journal."

Further, even for middle/maiden name discrepancies, nothing in the law says the names have to match. I frequently notarize for "Jane Marie Doe" when the ID says "Jane Smith Doe". It is very common in Florida for married women to have their maiden name on their driver license instead of their middle name. If I were to make a fuss over every middle initial or middle name or maiden name, I would never get any work done.

The "more but not less" concept is a myth. Not even California, I believe, has laws stating that the name on the ID has to contain the same name or "more name" than the name on the document. This is paranoia and a myth created amongst notaries without any legal basis, IMO.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 1:35pm
Msg #360187

Re: Nothing in FL law says ID has to match documents

“The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of ________, 20__, by Mary Smith, who represented to me that she was formerly known as Mary Jones, and who provided a Florida driver license, No. 123 45 678 890 in the name of Mary Smith as identification.”

IMO, this does not apply. She never legally took her husbands last name. She is who her DL says she is. She can't just selectively use any name when it suits her. Her 'say so' means nothing and I wouldn't use this cert to circumvent proper procedure.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/8/10 1:57pm
Msg #360203

Re: Nothing in FL law says ID has to match documents

I absolutely agree in that circumstance. My point was that the name does not have to match the ID exactly, as long as the signer acknowledges that he/she is known by such name. If the person says "I am not known as Jane Doe" then there is nothing that would convince me to notarize her as Jane Doe, and I question why the TC would draft the documents that way to begin with.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/8/10 2:39pm
Msg #360221

Re: Nothing in FL law says ID has to match documents

"I question why the TC would draft the documents that way to begin with."
Probably because it matches the way she took Title to the property.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/8/10 3:18pm
Msg #360243

I agree. I encounter this from time to time. Women's name

change. They often drop middle name for maiden name, but it doesn't necessarily get changed with ss or on ID's. All that matters to me is that I am certain that the person signing the docs is the person who is named in them.

Reply by Stoli on 11/8/10 1:51pm
Msg #360201

On second thought - the other CA notaries provided better

solutions to this problem, and I agree with their opinions.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/8/10 4:02pm
Msg #360254

follow your state's notary laws.... n/m