Posted by LeeH/IN on 11/23/10 7:27pm
Msg #362601

How do I handle this?

Scheduled for signing tomorrow. Was told signers would need extra time for RM because husband has some problems. When I asked if husband is lucid wife says husband has "some" dimentia and Parkinson's. She needs to guide his hand when signing. Looks like 2 points against signing tomorrow. How does one get a POA? If I have a POA signed while I am at the house would they be able to go ahead with signing or would docs have to be redrawn? What is necessary to have someone sign with an X (I know this doesn't cover the dimentia problem)? Presently I am waiting for the LO to get to me after he makes some calls. Should I call Title?
TIA

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/23/10 7:35pm
Msg #362603

1. Not your call to make as to whether they get a POA done or not - that's a legal issue for them to decide.

2. "If I have a POA signed while I am at the house would they be able to go ahead with signing or would docs have to be redrawn? " Normally title/lender have to review and approve the POA before the loan is "clear to close" and the original will need to be collected at the table if it hasn't already been delivered to title. Whether it can all be done at the same time is up to title.

3. "Sign with an X" - refer to your state handbook - that's a pure notary issue as far as your notarizations are ocncerned; however, will title accept him signing with an "X" - it's their call when it comes to how they want their docs signed.

Finally, yes, absolutely, call title - lay it out to them just as you have here - let title know all you've learned about this poor guy.

Good luck..

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/23/10 7:37pm
Msg #362605

Should correct this....

yes call title if they're who hired you - if it was an SS, call your contact there..

And I agree with what Donna said

Reply by Donna LaBelle on 11/23/10 7:37pm
Msg #362607

if signing with an X, he would need 2 credible witnesses to sign also, but he still has to underrstand what he is signing. I didd one once where a lady was dying of cancer and going fast. She could only sign by mark and her neighbors were there as witnesses and had to sign everything she signed. She did however understand what she was signing.

Reply by rengel/CA on 11/23/10 9:47pm
Msg #362623

Be careful aout telling someone

what the notary laws are. When you are in one state and you are telling someone in another state what the law is, you might be giving bad advise. Indiana's laws might be totally different than your state.

My .02

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/23/10 9:57pm
Msg #362624

5 Star post, Rhonda. n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/23/10 7:40pm
Msg #362608

Agree with Linda H/FL... just adding that, while you may sympathize with these folks, keep in mind exactly how you're going to explain 'why you signed this guy with dementia' to the judge.
That tends to put it in perspective. If he's not competant to sign the docs (Parkinson's aside), he's not competant to sign the POA either. And DON'T listen to the LO. (Apologies to the honest LOs---you know who you are.)

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/24/10 11:16pm
Msg #362722

<<<....keep in mind exactly how you're going to explain 'why you signed this guy with dementia' to the judge.>>>

The Notary will tell the judge that while the signer was in his/her presence, the signer had clarity and understanding of "who, what, when, where, and why". I've spoken to several different attorneys that I network with (probate/trust, family law, general practice) and they all said the same thing: people with dementia have times of clarity/normalcy and the Notary is only responsible for the client's condition at the time of notarizing. The client's condition before, or after the notary appointment is NOT the Notary's concern. In other words, if the client doesn't know what planet he/she is on before they appear before the Notary, but knows they are on earth during the appointment and then doesn't know what planet they're on after the appointment.....the notarization is totally appropriate and valid.

***Each Notary must notarize at their comfort level. If they're not comfortable notarizing for a dementia patient, then DON'T. I personally have no problem with it, but that's me. It is something I am willing to stand before a judge and be accountable for. Not everyone is willing to do that (and that's okay and totally understandable).***

Reply by Donna LaBelle on 11/23/10 7:35pm
Msg #362604

well in order to get him to sign a POA, he woulkd need to be able to understand what he is signing and sign on his own.

Reply by Les_CO on 11/23/10 7:37pm
Msg #362606

Just go do it and find out. 95% of the time it will be okay. If you had a POA who would sign it? The same guy? And it would have to go to Title/lender/approval etc. I’ve had guys that had a stroke and had to sign with other hand, etc etc. As long as the signer’s are aware you should be okay. Just part of the job. JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/23/10 7:41pm
Msg #362609

Re: How do I handle this?...ummm, Les?

Just go and do it? Even if she has to "guide his hand" when he signs his name? I disagree with that - if he can't sign his name she can't sign his name for him...

And if he can only sign with an "x" title/lender may not accept that - so no, I wouldn't just "go and do it" without full discussion with title first.

Reply by Les_CO on 11/23/10 9:22pm
Msg #362618

Re: How do I handle this?...ummm, Les?/Linda

Perhaps I should have better said "go see for yourself"
Just so you know I’ve done these types of signings before. I’m reading between the lines here, but many things that the OP is worried about may be conjecture. She’s spoken with the spouse, that is trying to be helpful, and truthful, but may just want to let everyone, how ‘helpful’ and ‘needed’ she is in everything the husband (poor guy) does. The poster is worried about a POA, A POA? What? Reverse Mortgage signings always ‘take more time’. At least 50% of the married people I know will tell you their spouse is “lucid” only occasionally, never during birthdays, or anniversaries usually only during football games. If the guy has Parkinson’s he may have some tremor in his signature. My point was this is a decision we all make every day, and we can’t do it on the phone. She should go to the signing and see/decide for herself. The guys signature may be shaky, and a bit feeble, but if you see him sign it, and he’s who he says he is, and he knows what he’s signing. What else do you need? If I can swear in court that someone that identified themselves to me satisfactorily, and signed a particular document in my presents, even if I don’t find the signature particularly legible, that’s good enough for me. JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/23/10 9:27pm
Msg #362619

I agree with you Les...

but I'd go to see for myself only after advising title what's going on and that I may NOT be able to complete the assignment....

Don't you agree?

Reply by Les_CO on 11/23/10 10:25pm
Msg #362629

Re: I agree with you Les...

Yes I agree!....mostly…If some scheduler from some SS called me for a RM, and said “husband may have problem, RM take a bit more time blah blah.” I either say yes I can do it or no. When I call in the borrower to confirm, I may say that the SS said husband could have difficulty signing, is this so? Her answer and my time constraints could determine if I wanted to bother with the signing or not. I’m not saying that is right. I’d prefer to think of myself as a commissioned officer of the state with certain duties to perform when asked. Some people really need what a RM can do for them. If I’m wearing my moral hat I’d go see if I could do the signing. Wearing my avaricious hat I would not turn down two good easy ones to take this. If the husband is not cognizant of what’s going on, or unable to sign, or in my judgment can’t, then I adjourn, if his hand tremors a bit, but he’s aware then I continue.

What the person at the SS (that has never seen the guy) has to say is irrelevant.

I have been in the position where I must say no. It’s not fun, especially in hospitals/nursing homes. In this case, if I could not proceed, I’d just tell the SS the guy was physically unable to sign the documents, and you need to know that and make arraignments accordingly. JMO

Reply by LeeH/IN on 11/23/10 9:27pm
Msg #362620

Re: How do I handle this?...ummm, Les?

Thanks for your input. LO said signing is being rescheduled. I hope that means they will work out these details and not just find someone who will agree to notarize regardless of the circumstances, which is what I think the SS was trying to get me to do. I can accept someone's scawl as a signature but not someone guiding the hand. I'm glad I don't have to go out to the appointment to decide if the husband understands what he is signing. Just sorry I had turned down several signing possibilities for that time slot.
Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Reply by Les_CO on 11/23/10 10:31pm
Msg #362630

Re: How do I handle this?...ummm, Les?

Bottom Line….Never do anything you will be uncomfortable with. Life’s too short. Happy Thanksgiving

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/24/10 8:17am
Msg #362638

In cases like this, I would ask the spouse (or relative) f the doctor would write a letter certifying the patient's competency.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/24/10 8:32am
Msg #362639

FWIW, it is considered acceptable to have someone guide or steady a person's hand. They just can't sign for them. I've had a few situations with patients with Parkinson's that we got through that way.
As a notary, my real concern would be whether a person is being "forced or coerced" to sign something against their will. My .02

Reply by rolomia on 11/24/10 11:45am
Msg #362659

My only concern with allowing another person to assist the signer would be the possible legal implications that this might open up, later. As so many of you are fond of saying, life is too short. I do not want to waste future time in court defending my decisions as a notary. I stay busy enough getting paid to conduct signing jobs without these concerns so that I have no problem turning down questionable signing orders.

We don't get paid for any time we waste in a court room. Only the attorneys get paid. And, since I'm not an attorney, I don't have the legal knowledge to be comfortable with a signing order like the one being discussed here. But, even if I were an attorney, I would still want to invest my time with cases that aren't as complicated as this one appears to be. Let the newbies handle these potential nightmares. I've already paid my dues (LOL)

Reply by LynnNC on 11/24/10 11:38am
Msg #362656

A person with dementia cannot sign a P of A

The will have to go to court and have a guardian named. I used to manage guardianships when I was a VP in Trust Administration at Bank One and am familiar with the process when someone goes from being competent to not.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 11/24/10 12:52pm
Msg #362671

Guiding the Hand

I've had blind signers before whose hand we've had to guide to sign on a line, and people whose motor skills were compromised, although their minds were fine. I carry a ruler in my notary bag for just such situations. The ruler is used as a guide under the line where the signer needs to put his/her signature. I agree with Les that I'd go to the signing and determine for myself if the borrower was mentally competent to sign the documents. If so, then I would be fine with assistance for the borrower to hold the pen and sign, so long as I knew the borrower was signing willingly and understood what he was signing.

Now, I'm in Florida and Indiana may have different laws about assistance with signing one's name. However, a physical handicap shouldn't keep a mentally competent borrower from signing his docs.

Reply by Jodith Allen on 12/1/10 12:06pm
Msg #363389

Re: Guiding the Hand

In the State of Washington, we are allowed to hold the signer's hand to help them make an X, but not to sign their name. The X needs to be witnessed by another person independent of the transaction as well.

However, before a notary can take such an action, they must assure themselves that the person is competent to sign, understands what they are signing and agrees to it. In other words, the notary must be able to communicate in some way with the signer. I haven't had one of these situations come up yet.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 11/24/10 8:00pm
Msg #362700

Dementia == NO SIGNING. No granting PoA, either! n/m

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 11/25/10 6:52pm
Msg #362777

People in the beginning stages of all forms of dementia can still make legal decisions.

You are right to question whether or not the person is lucid enough at that moment to understand and make decisions.