Posted by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 2:30pm
Msg #360214

Issues with a Closing

So I did a closing the other night, borrowers signed everything, package sent back, all was fine. Got a call today from the guy that hired me; apparently the HUD has a message on top, Form to be used as draft only. I've seen it several closings before, never been a problem. This time, the Title Company is saying I should have caught it, and are potentially requesting that I go back out. I told the guy that hired me that while I can appreciate the situation, I didn't cause the error; my job is to verify identities and witness signatures, and that I don't think I'd be willing to go back out without a fee for a problem I didn't cause. Verbiage on the forms is not my job, and quite frankly, I wouldn't know what was right or wrong regardless, as I have no formal legal training...I'm a smart guy, but when it comes to stuff like tthat, I have no idea...

Am I wrong for being unwilling to go back out for free? During the signing, I called the guy who hired me and asked several questions, and the borrower's didn't meant it until well after I left, he said something about exercising some right to cancel (I mean he has the 72 hour rescission, but he made it seem like something in addition to that). I don't know what I should do...anyone have anything?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 2:32pm
Msg #360217

Did you have the final HUD also or just the draft? n/m

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 2:37pm
Msg #360219

Re: Did you have the final HUD also or just the draft?

Says a draft...I've had this same form MANY MANY times though, and it's never been a problem, even if that's incorrect-thus why I didn't catch it. I've never had a closing with this come back with a problem. However, the real issue is is that the TC sent the docs over, and they know what's in there. How is that my fault? The Verbiage maybe incorrect, but I'm not lawyer, and after having seen this form many times without it coming back, it seemed like every other closing. Sorry, just needed to throw that out.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 2:50pm
Msg #360229

My only thought on this...and the reason I asked...is

Any time I'm sent a "draft" HUD it has the word "DRAFT" in big block caps printed diagonally across the front page...and draft is what it is - a preliminary HUD, not the final one - and not the one that is required to fund.

I agree with the others - they can handle this directly with the borrowers since it's not notarized - if they choose to have you go out it's only right they pay a fee, especially if it wasn't your error - unless you want to play some "public relations" and negotiate a reduced fee, conceding a bit to keep a client.

Welcome to our world, Jason...

Reply by twil4_WI on 11/8/10 4:32pm
Msg #360258

Re: Where was the final HUD

Most of the time when I am sent docs, if the final HUD is not there, title or the SS will let me know HUD is to follow. If you were sent an incomplete package, whoever did the title work and thus also the HUD would have let them know it was still coming. Seems to me whoever dropped the ball of communication wasnt you. Did you ever see a final hud that day? I know I have come back from a closing and a new HUD is in my email that they have redone, arriving 2 hours after the closing, and then I always call whoever sent it, if its not too far, I will run it out there to keep my client happy, but if its in the boonies down a one lane road behind Amish wagons and a parade, well then they will have to pay me.

Reply by Jim/AL on 11/8/10 2:35pm
Msg #360218

If I am reading this correctly then it is only the HUD that was not the Final?

If so it can be emailed, faxed etc... to the borrowers for their approval and signature within the RTC period and sent back to TC/lander....been done many times in closings I have done.

Overcharge or something changes HUD, they send new and get wet sigs from BO's.

I would go back if they paid me.

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 2:40pm
Msg #360222

And I'm willing to go back, for a fee...they don't want to pay the fee, citing that I should have caught it.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 2:39pm
Msg #360220

I don't think you're wrong at all.

Not your job to decide what HUD form is used, I wouldn't go back for free. MHO.

Reply by Lee/AR on 11/8/10 2:43pm
Msg #360224

Re: I don't think you're wrong at all.

Fact is, the HUD is not a notarized doc, so they can handle it directly with the B....or pay you for correcting their error.

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 2:43pm
Msg #360225

Re: I don't think you're wrong at all.

I'm a fairly new notary, and I don't work in real estate or in any legal capacity beyond being a notary...are there different HUD forms that can be used? If so, how many? What are they called?

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 2:49pm
Msg #360227

There is only one.

I was referring to it being a draft or a final HUD. Still not for us to 'catch'.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/8/10 2:55pm
Msg #360233

If you really really like this TC ....

at least up to this point ... and want to continue to do business with them or think you will get a lot of business from them in the future, then eat this one. Get it done, send it back. But judging by your post, they are complete baffoons and losing them would be no great loss.

This is totally their fault and not yours. Sure, one could argue it would have been nice if you had "caught" it, but then again, this is not ours to "catch," as Donna noted. If I ever saw a draft HUD (which I have) I would not question it, assuming the TC knew what it was doing and that the final HUD would be sent to the borrowers later or that their agent would get it signed and returned at some point ...

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/8/10 4:52pm
Msg #360263

Re: If you really really like this TC ....

In CA I think it's normal to have an estimated HUD or draft HUD (I'm just basing that on the few CA packages that I have done and what I have read here on NotRot). Here in VA we have a final HUD, and I would not go to the closing without it.

Sometimes, here in VA, the lender's preliminary HUD from the closing instructions is included in the package. (It was terribly confusing for me when I first started in this biz.) How I handle it is, if it has a signature line for the borrower with the borrower's name typed under it, I have them sign it but tell them that it's a preliminary version and the final HUD is the one we signed at the beginning. Then they say, "Well why do we have to sign it if it's not the final?" The answer is, they probably don't but if their name is typed on it and there is no indication that they shouldn't sign, if their name is typed on the signature line then that is an indication to me that the lender wants it signed and I have them sign so I don't have to go back later for free.

GOLDGIRL, I agree with you that he needs to evaluate how important this relationship is and decide accordingly how to proceed.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/8/10 2:49pm
Msg #360228

Was this the HUD that is sometimes included within the lender's closing instructions? Sometimes those say draft on them. Or was this document sent to you as a separate attachment?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/10 2:51pm
Msg #360231

That's the one I was thinking of, Linda... n/m

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 2:52pm
Msg #360232

It was sent as part of the package, there were two or three huds in there, and they ALL said draft on them...any suggestions?

Reply by MW/VA on 11/8/10 3:02pm
Msg #360234

As you said, Jason, you're still fairly new at this. IMO,

we do have some responsibility for the docs that we sit down at the table with. I always check to packages to make sure the HUD, Note, DOT, TIL, RTC's, etc. are there. Some would disagree.
It's been discussed many times. When we accept the role of NSA we are acting as more than a notary. We are there to do more than witness signatures.
One rule of thumb is to always make sure you have the final HUD. I say this because it's often the last document to be sent (requires lender's final approval, yada yada yada).
In this case, I don't think this was your fault. It's already been said that it's not a notarized doc.
It can be sent directly to the borrower, even emailed, during the 3 day RTC. There are sometimes even adjustments in the nos. that are made during that time.
I would suggest that if you want to establish your business based on good customer service & establish good working relationships with the cos. you deal with, I would go out with the new HUD, have it signed & send it to them. Do I think you're at fault? No, but it's about getting the job done right. Those who are successful don't necessarily play the corporate game, saying "sorry, that's not my job". Good luck.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 3:10pm
Msg #360240

I think he was hired by a SS.

He said "the guy who hired me...". That's how I read his first post. I would speak to the TC for clarification.

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 3:42pm
Msg #360247

Re: I think he was hired by a SS.

Correct, I wasn't hired by Title. I was hired by an SS. I'm not saying I wouldn't go back out, bu I have to see. Also, I did check the package, all the documents were there-the issue as it stands is that the borrower is apparently talking to the TC about the HUD not being a Final, but a Draft. If the HUD weren't there, I wouldn't have gone, or I would take the blame, you are absolutely right. That's where it stands right now. I'm not passing the buck, as I've worked and had that happen hundreds of times, but I'm also getting tired of being the one to correct other people's mistakes. I did it in retail for years, and now here. I realize I'm low man on the totem pole, but the HUD being "Final" as opposed to "Draft" doesn't seem to be my issue, as I have no control over the documents. Who knows. Just been a STRESSFUL two weeks.

Reply by Doris_CO on 11/8/10 3:52pm
Msg #360250

Re: I think he was hired by a SS.

Did you have the borrowers sign the HUD even though it had the word "draft" on it? You haven't mentioned that and no one has asked.

I've seen "draft" or "estimate" HUD's, particularly from a CA company. Some companies tell you or the borrower that the final HUD will be sent after the closing but most just assume you know. With the new HUD rules I don't know if those CA companies can still send an estimate HUD with the loan package.

Reply by Jason Berger on 11/8/10 3:56pm
Msg #360251

Re: I think he was hired by a SS.

I did indeed have the borrowers sign both Draft HUDs...thus my annoyance

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/8/10 4:38pm
Msg #360260

Re: I think he was hired by a SS.

Jason, how were these docs sent to you? Were they sent to you:

- in one file where the entire loan package was sent as one pdf file

- downloaded from a secure website where there were specific links for title package and lender package

- sent to your email address in several pdf attachments (anywhere from two to 10+ attachments)


How the docs were sent could matter as far as whether you can reasonably think you have all the docs or not.

Reply by LindaD/NJ on 11/8/10 3:59pm
Msg #360253

Jason,The tc can send the hud directly to the borrowers. Does not need a notary seal on it. Unless they want the borrowers to sign it in front of a notary. Or they are just being tough on the SS. I have had this in the past, Final and draft in pkg or just draft. They send the final to the borrowers shortly after their closing. Never had an issue with this. Hope things are going good for you!

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/8/10 7:19pm
Msg #360275

I can count on 1 hand the SS I trust...

Dollars to doughnuts the TC is paying this SS a return trip fee and the SS doesn't want to hand it over so they tell the notary it was his fault. It probably wasn't even an issue, they just want a final HUD signed. I don't know who this SS is but I would get verification from the TC.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/8/10 8:23pm
Msg #360292

formal legal training, what? hardly needed, but you do need,

if you are going to perform notary public closings that is, training in the mortgage and real estate fields.

IMO, that HUGE mistake is something an experienced nsa would've caught.

Next time make sure you have the FINAL HUD, if you don't have it, then ask your hiring party for it.

You should, as an act of good faith, go back out and fix this, as this is clearly an error on your part IMO.

Reply by jnew on 11/8/10 10:29pm
Msg #360302

Re: formal legal training, what? hardly needed, but you do need,

Make sure your instructions did not ask you to verify if the HUD 1 was included in the package before closing. When you see a draft on a HUD 1 there is a good chance that they will NOT be disbursing from it. You should get an email at least from the hiring party defining what you will be responsible for. I agree that it is something that can't just be ignored. If something does not look right, get a written statement that you can rely on, otherwise it might be a good idea to run out with the final and end the problem. It would be a PR issue with the hiring party.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/9/10 5:51am
Msg #360314

My 2 cents ...

Jason isn't that new or that inexperienced - a year and a half and 170 "successfully closed loans" is enough to imply to a client that you know your way around the block. IF you were NOT advertising any hint of such 'specialized' notarial work, I'd feel differently - but you are.

You asked for opinions on what you should do - here's mine: You should own & eat the mistake, because you held yourself out as someone whom your client could assume DOES know the difference between a draft and a final Hud. Next, you should learn the difference, and chalk this up mentally to part of your training.

Or, alternatively, remove any reference in your profiles to being an experienced loan signer and make it clear, you are operating strictly in the capacity of a notary public.

Reply by Dave_CA on 11/9/10 9:57am
Msg #360343

Re: My 2 cents ...

As CA is an escrow state we never see the "FINAL" HUD as that is sent directly to the borrowers at the end of closing. What we almost always see is an Estimated Settlement Statement & now a HUD but I don't believe it is final.
JMOO

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/9/10 12:36pm
Msg #360396

Jason's not in CA, he's in NJ n/m