Posted by Jason Berger on 11/11/10 5:50pm
Msg #360882
Issues with a Reverse Mortgage
I did a reverse mortgage on Monday, the borrower's signed everything. They did forget to check a few boxes and such, but all the signatures are there. I get a call tonight from the woman who hired me saying I forgot a few signatures...this is VERY unlike me. I check my packages before going to make sure everything printed and after I check them at the closing and obviously while notarizing. She emails me all four or 5 documents...two of them weren't in the package, one of them is dated by Mr. Doe for 9/15/10, which means it has nothing to do with my closing, and the others that are considered "Misses" (Ones without signatures) are those where a box wasn't checked. I'm supposedly being asked to go back out, but I pointed out that those weren't my misses, and I will CALL the borrower to get the information to check the boxes, that another trip isn't necessary. Am I right or wrong?
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/11/10 6:00pm
Msg #360887
Didn't check the boxes - incomplete form - on you..and no, you should NOT be calling them to find out what boxes to check...go back and let the borrowers complete their own forms.
Doc dated 9/15 more than likely IS your closing - probably a preliminary document that they wanted an original signature on - on you
Form not in original package - can you prove it? And if you can...what's the point - you still have other issues to correct - one doc doesn't mean squat at this point.
My .02 FWIW - go back, get it corrected so loan can fund...
Then step back and maybe take a good loan signing course (like the SAR course) - or take your time at the signings - this is 2 issues in 4 days you've posted about...somewhere along the way you have to own them...
MHO
| Reply by Pam/NM on 11/11/10 6:18pm
Msg #360894
My best guess is the form from 09/15 is the HECM counseling form....counseling probably took place back then, but they need wet ink on it. And I agree with Linda: take your time and make sure you have "every i dotted and every t crossed." Reverses take more time and patience than a regular refi, but I love the borrowers. They are almost always sweet, genteel and grateful for all your help. Some of my best signings have been reverses or reverse apps. Of course, that was before I had to do the app signing for a bedridden woman last week. But she was still a stitch!
| Reply by Jason Berger on 11/11/10 6:36pm
Msg #360896
My question to you: You wouldn't condone a TC checking boxes after the fact, even with borrowers permission?
I've been told by TCs and SSs to fill out the forms after the fact...granted, I left that up to them, but they did it without thinking twice and without complaint, as I've never had to go back out before.
The doc done on 9/15 was dated around that same time by someone involved on the professional side (Settlement Agent or someone else), so that wasn't me...unless I'm missing something?
As far as the forms not being in the original package, I was able to prove that as I have original packages saved in case something like this happened...SS saw the same, as did TC.
As far as the other issue I posted about, that wasn't a matter of the signing being completed in haste or anything...Mrs. Doe signed with the POA Verbiage that was listed on the forms, which was instructed to me by the SS...
I'm not one to pass the buck, but these I don't necessarily feel were all my fault, as the majority of the situations similar were handled in such a fashion that an additional trip wasn't required; does that make it right? Not at all, but both the SS and TC in this case are willingly paying me to go back out, so someone else feels I wasn't at fault
I do truly appreciate your opinion, it just seems like the postings I've made weren't entirely on me.
| Reply by Roadie_MD on 11/11/10 6:46pm
Msg #360897
Seems like you already have an idea what you want to do,
you just want someone to agree with you. Only you can decide if it's worth asking for another fee to go back out. If you are relatively new to this and you feel that that error is yours, then go back and get it fixed on your dime. If you were not instructed to have the boxes checked, and the missing documents were not in the package, then ask for another fee. Just know that it might mean them not calling you again. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and have it be a lesson learned.
p.s. I generally have the borrowers initial any boxes that are checked, or anything that is hand-written on the documents.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/11/10 6:51pm
Msg #360899
I don't want to drag this on forever...but I do
want to respond to this..
"You wouldn't condone a TC checking boxes after the fact, even with borrowers permission?
I've been told by TCs and SSs to fill out the forms after the fact...granted, I left that up to them, but they did it without thinking twice and without complaint, as I've never had to go back out before"
What title does is their business and on them, not me - they have a Ltd POA to cover them for typographical and clerical errors - that POA does NOT extend to me, so NO, I would NOT complete a form on behalf of the signer, especially after the fact and NOT in the signer's presence - it needs another trip and, has been pointed out, probably would need to be initialed.
| Reply by John Schenk on 11/11/10 8:53pm
Msg #360914
Agreed. Limited POA gives them certain rights...
and they can check a box, here and there. We should do our best to be sure no boxes have to be checked through that limited POA, and not make them enforce the Correction Agreement to send docs back to the BOs. Blank boxes for the BOs to check, or initial, are our job to get filled in at the closing. There are folks that you go to a signing with that would sign a document that stated IF I DON'T PAY THIS LOAN, MY FIRST BORN CHILD IS AN INDENTURED SERVANT FOR LIFE, and they'd sign it. Doesn't mean people are stupid, but the docs presented to them are voluminous. The BOs work every day, like most of us do. They are a little more scanning of what they are signing when there is no RTC, like a HELOC, Cashout, investment property closing, or a Streamline with their own previous lender.
The limited POAs keep us from going out there again, in may instances. OUR job is still to make sure the BOs fill in the blanks, and X the boxes. IF we don't do that, we haven't really done a good job.
New forms, or variations of old forms, come along all the time. I always look through the docs before ever going to a closing, but that's a luxury for me as I never print docs on the run. I always fill out everything I can before the signing other than my sig and stamp, and always will. Gives me a chance to peruse the docs, and see if I'm missing anything I think should be there, and also gives me a chance to see what name variations are throughout the docs for the signers. If there are multiple name variations, I know to look for at in the signing, and I tell the BOs up front that we have to look for those name variations. I let them understand that IF we don't get this done right, it will have to be done again. They appreciate that urgency of signing their name correctly, especially if it's a BIG loan package, and they comply, and HELP me watch for the name variations.
Everyone handles a signing differently. Most non-VA refis I am done in 30-40 minutes. VA refis usually run 45-60. BOA loans run 1- 1 1/2 hours, just because of the volume of docs. BOAs should cost more, because they take more of your time, and money out of your pocket. Some have faxback requirements if there is a NBS, and sometimes they want a faxback even IF there is no NBS, as I had today. I gave them a gift and emailed that in PDF. Had I had to fax that, my $1 a page over 10 pages WOULD have applied, as the instructions did not call for a faxback if there was a spouse that was also on the loan.
SORRY FOR THE RANT! Got carried away. BOA loans really pi$$ me off.
Have a great month!
JJ
| Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/12/10 7:48am
Msg #360951
Re: Agreed. Limited POA gives them certain rights...
"The limited POAs keep us from going out there again, in may instances. OUR job is still to make sure the BOs fill in the blanks, and X the boxes. IF we don't do that, we haven't really done a good job"
I agree in part with you John, but not about the part of making sure the boxes are checked. That is so NOT our job to make sure these are checked. Even on forms we are actually notarizing. If there are blank spaces or unchecked boxes, then it doesn't get notarized IMO.
If the BO doesn't want to check a box or sign a document,are we then obliged to 'force' or 'coerce' them to? We can only do our job to a point, and then move on to the next form. Just because the BO choose to not sign or not check clearly doesn't prove that he didn't his job?
I agree with you and Jason in that those issues can be easily resolved given the limited POA and correction agreement were signed by the BO, that's what those forms are supposed to be used for. But in this case, the lender clearly screwed up by not including those extra forms, and rather than admitting that, chooses to put the blame on the nsa, to force a a guilt trip if you will, in him going back out, usually at their own expense.
Jason, if they're willing to pay you the extra $$ trip fee, then go for it.
What pi$$es me off, are those sneaky lying backstabber lenders, lo, brokers, tc's and ss that do not own up to their mistakes and pass it off as the nsa's fault! UGH!
| Reply by Victoria_NJ on 11/12/10 10:43am
Msg #360976
Bottom line - Docs to be FULLY executed at time of closing
Means if the borrower has to check boxes as completion of a form, you are responsible for simply saying, "You need to check a box or fill in this form"
IF YOU FILL IN FORMS FOR A BORROWER, you may be ILLEGALLY PRACTICING LAW.
A limited POA has NOTHING to do with the initial signing and DOES NOT COVER notarial acts of "missing" required information that you did not tell the borrower they needed to execute at closing.
As to the aged docs, many times a lender/title office/broker will require a counter signature to a previously signed doc that is executed on the actual day of closing.
If I were you, I'd keep a sample copy of a Reverse Mtg, sit down, study it, memorize it, so that you know EVER SINGLE item that requires a signature, acknowledgement or fill-in by the borrower.
YES, you are responsible for all of what you missed. No if, ands or buts.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/11/10 6:56pm
Msg #360900
What were the boxes that were not checked?
If something is obvious that needs to be checkmarked and such, I will ask the borrowers to make the selections. Sometimes on docs, they do not know or can't figure out what to write in or what to checkmark - I send those back unchecked with signature. I also do not ask borrowers to complete blank VA forms, like Certificates of Eligibility that require dates of service and such. IMHO that stuff should already be filled in and I am not going to wait for them to dig through their records to find it. I have them sign it and it goes back blank. If it's an occupancy certification or line 28b,c,d on page two of the VA Report and Certification of Loan Disbursement, I will ask the signer to read the statements and check the correct boxes.
Jason, you've said before that you work for $70 companies and those are the only ones offering you business right now. Long ago, I found that when I raised my fees that, miraculously, the quality of my clients became higher and the PITA factor lessened considerably with the job requirements.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 11/11/10 10:45pm
Msg #360928
<<<I found that when I raised my fees that, miraculously, the quality of my clients became higher and the PITA factor lessened considerably with the job requirements.>>>
Absolutely!!!
| Reply by MW/VA on 11/11/10 8:07pm
Msg #360907
Good point, Linda. I think Jason needs to come to
understand that this biz does not operate like the corporate world. We generally have to do whatever is needed to get the loan finished & funded.
| Reply by Jason Berger on 11/11/10 8:15pm
Msg #360909
Re: Good point, Linda. I think Jason needs to come to
I do agree that things need to be done to close the loan, and I'm all about that. Linda brought up the term I was talking about before, being the POA. As you know, I don't have formal law training or anything like that, I was under the impression (As it's been told to me before, but again, we all know there is a lot of false info out there, thus my confusion and postings on this site) that one of the many companies involved, whoever catches these mistakes perhaps, can use the POA to correct the unchecked boxes. If they called the borrowers and asked the questions, I was told that that POA covers them. Not saying that what I was told was correct, but its all I was told, so its what I know, thus the postings here. I'm learning what works and what doesn't; as it were, this may not be the business for me, but we'll figure it out.
| Reply by MW/VA on 11/11/10 8:25pm
Msg #360911
That's right, Jason. I don't know where I'd be without this
forum. Every day is a learning experience, whether it is in this field or in life.
We only learn by asking.
| Reply by HisHughness on 11/11/10 8:57pm
Msg #360917
Re: That's right, Jason. I don't know where I'd be without this
***We only learn by asking.***
Well...sometimes I learn by getting my face slapped.
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