Posted by OR on 11/4/10 11:03pm
Msg #359765

POA strange signing long with a question

Would you except a photo copy of a POA?

I had a POA signing today. Title said sister had POA for Brother. I get to the singning and the Borrower does not have POA. Said she thought that the Title Co was sending me one with the loan package. She said she paid $500 so the title co would send her one.

The twist was that I had talked to the sister in law (in another state) trying to comfirm the loan signing. Sister does not know of any REfi. Says her husband is in France and will not be home until next week on monday.

So I tell ask my borrower why she doesnt just wait until monday and have everyone sign thir own papers. She says that she is trying to save money. LO has told her that it would cost her $100 per person to have everyone sign their own papers.

Then she shows me papers she signed last week that she signed for herself and her brother. That had the wording she was POA for brother. NO POA for Sister or Sister inlaw. She did not sign for them so title rejected that package. I asked her why title didn't just send the paper work to the Sister and Sister in law to be signed. She said that it would have cost her $100.00 per person to have them sign their own papers. She paid $500.00 to the Title Co for POA.

By the way her husband was signing too and he was there. Total of 5 people signing a refi.

Needless to say No POA she does not sign papers for any one but her self.

Now she said that the first Notary had a POA she brought to the table with her. I said they much have overnighted one to her.

??? Doeesnt Title need an original POA to close with. I know that I am required to always send an original with the doc's every time some one signs with one. Or am I wrong on that. I am checking my state rules for this. TIA

Reply by OR on 11/4/10 11:04pm
Msg #359766

Re: I bet my spelling stinks. I should have spell checked

sorry

Reply by Jack/AL on 11/4/10 11:27pm
Msg #359767

Re: I bet my spelling stinks. I should have spell checked

Well, Odds Botkins! It all makes me wonder if the refi is on the up and up. Is she trying to refi and get cash out before the weary warrior returns, and perhaps without his knowledge?

Reply by OR on 11/4/10 11:36pm
Msg #359770

Re: I bet my spelling stinks. I should have spell checked

No cash out normal refi. But then no payment until January which is almost 5 grand to them. It is a rental in CA.

Reply by Pat/IL on 11/4/10 11:50pm
Msg #359771

This isn't going to be easy.

OR, there are a few things here that just don't make sense. If there are five signers, at a cost of $100.00 per signer, wouldn't that be $500.00 anyway? Where is she saving any money? Being that two parties are married, and would be able to sign together on Monday, I count three different signings. Are they charging per signing session, or per signer? Anyway, paying $500.00 for a single POA seems to negate any savings.

Not to mention that three different POAs (PsOA?) would be needed if the sister, brother and sister-in-law were not attending the signing that you were to conduct. I don't know if the title company records the POA in your state, as we tend to here, or what the recording fee would be for each. But, it's another item for your borrower to consider cost-wise, unless, perchance, recording fees are included in that $500.00 price.

Anyway, if there was a POA for each signer, the title company should have had at least a copy before giving the okay to close. I realize it may not be much help for you to hear how we do it in Illinois, but it's all I know. Here, we would generally want a original, limited power of attorney, specific to the transaction at hand, to expire on a date certain, to record with the security instrument. The POA(s) would need approval before signing the loan documents.

There's more that doesn't make sense to me here, but it's late and I may be just reading it all wrong. I hope I was at least able to help some with your ultimate question.

Reply by OR on 11/5/10 12:50am
Msg #359772

Re: This isn't going to be easy.

Yes she would need 3 POA's. She has only had "one" for the brother the first time she sign. That was why the first Notary only had her sign for the brother. Kicking that one out. LO tried to get it signed again tonight.

Yes Titled charged her $500 to sign with POA. I think that the LO told her that so they could charge her. Title sent her 1 POA with the first set of docs. Thus 2 people vested on title did not sign.


Yes She was told by LO that it would cost her $100 per signer to sign the papers. It adds up to $500

In Oregon you have to see proof that the Signer has POA. Thus no POA she did not sign.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/5/10 8:00am
Msg #359775

Does OR law require you to view the original POA?

In Florida, when a person is signing as attorney-in-fact, we do NOT have to view the Power of Attorney. Our manual specifically says we should just take their word for it - by signing in that capacity they are representing to us that they are authorized to sign... it's all on the signer.

Unless your laws or manual specifically dictate otherwise, I see no reason why you would need to see an original -or- a copy of the POA document.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/5/10 8:08am
Msg #359780

Yes they do - page 42 of the OR manual

and I think it's a good idea. OR's manual is also very explicit that an AIF cert can only be an acknowledgement and not a jurat as they can't swear to something on someone else's behalf.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/5/10 8:11am
Msg #359781

Should add it doesn't state if they should see the

original or if a photocopy will suffice...just see proof of the POA.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/5/10 8:13am
Msg #359782

Our laws are also explicit that an AIF can not swear

to something on the principal's behalf (§ 709.08(7)(b)2., Fla. Stat. (2009); Notarial Practice in the State of Florida, R. T. Koehler, p. 47-48).

But you are right, our manual should be more clear on the matter. I am hoping with our new administration in Florida that the Notary Section gets some reform.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/5/10 8:14am
Msg #359783

But - FWIW - I am glad we do not have to view the

POA document in Florida. I don't want to be responsible for determining whether the document is valid, has been revoked, or if the principal is living or deceased.

Reply by PAW on 11/5/10 8:59am
Msg #359785

Re: But - FWIW - I am glad we do not have to view the

Not a problem if the code is worded similarly to Oregon's:

"The notary is not required to judge whether the power of attorney is valid for that particular transaction. However, if something is blatantly wrong, such as the document is obviously expired, or clearly says it is not to be used for the type of document being notarized, then the notary should not notarize, and should make a notation to that effect in the journal."

Further, there already exists an affidavit to be signed by the AIF stating they have the power and it is in effect. Therefore, the responsibility is on the AIF, not the notary, to ensure the poser is valid and current.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/5/10 9:02am
Msg #359786

Still wouldn't be comfortable

If I'm presented with a 15 page DPOA, I don't want to be responsible for determining whether or not the AIF is authorized to sign a particular document.

Reply by PAW on 11/5/10 9:17am
Msg #359787

That's your prerogative. n/m

Reply by PAW on 11/5/10 9:19am
Msg #359788

Dang spell checker

last phrase should read, "to ensure the POA is valid and current."

Reply by OR on 11/5/10 9:41am
Msg #359789

Re: Yes they do - page 42 of the OR manual

Correct Linda in oregon you have to see the POA. POA be used for a jurat.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/5/10 9:58am
Msg #359794

"POA be used for a jurat"

No.....the AIF cannot swear to something on the principal's behalf - any signature you notarize for an AIF *MUST* be an acknowledgement...

Reply by PAW on 11/5/10 10:11am
Msg #359796

POA cannot be used for an oath (jurat) ...

Not even in Oregon. Page 42 of the OR manual: "The attorney-in-fact acknowledgment is always an acknowledgment, never a jurat. One can never swear an oath on behalf of another."

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/5/10 10:20am
Msg #359798

Disagree, AIF POA is never a jurat:

An attorney-in-fact acknowledgment is a type of acknowledgment in a representative capacity. The attorney-in-fact represents the person named in the document and signs on his or her behalf.

A power of attorney document is the authorization the attorney-in-fact gets so that he or she can sign documents on the signer’s behalf. Those documents may then be accompanied by an attorney-in-fact acknowledgment. When a notary needs to do an attorney-in-fact acknowledgment, he or she often needs to see proof of the signer’s authority to sign for another. That proof is the power of attorney.

A general acknowledgment notarial certificate is usually used for a power of attorney document, i.e. someone giving someone else the power to sign documents for him/her. The attorney-in-fact acknowledgment is always an acknowledgment, never a jurat. One can never swear an oath on behalf of another.

Check for proof (the power of attorney) that the signer has this power, especially in real estate matters where it should be of record. Note the proof in the journal.

The notary is not required to judge whether the power of attorney is valid for that particular transaction. However, if something is blatantly wrong, such as the document is obviously expired, or clearly says it is not to be used for the type of document being notarized, then the notary should not notarize, and should make a notation to that effect in the journal.

The signer must sign the document for the principal and for self. For example, “Effie M. Stone by Susan Brown, as attorney-in-fact.” The notarial certificate must state that Susan Brown is signing on behalf of Effie M. Stone. The signer should sign both names in the notarial journal. A notary shall not charge more than $10.00 for an attorney-in-fact acknowledgment.

SAMPLE CERTIFICATE
Acknowledgment Through Power of Attorney

State of OREGON

County of On this day of , 20 , before me personally appeared , (proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence)(personally known to me) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the within instrument (Type of Document as the attorney in fact of: , and acknowledged that (he)(she) subscribed the name of thereto as principal, and (his)(her) own name as attorney in fact.


Notary Public – State of Oregon

Reply by MW/VA on 11/5/10 8:03am
Msg #359776

I am wondering who the tc is in this. I have never done a

POA signing where the tc did not have the original well in advance. The lender needs to approve a POA signing. Obviously, no one wants to get stuck in a situation where a signing isn't done legally. I can't understand how you got this involved. It's not our job to handle any of this.

Reply by OR on 11/5/10 9:43am
Msg #359790

Re: I am wondering who the tc is in this. I have never done a

First Am

Reply by James Dawson on 11/5/10 8:04am
Msg #359777

Morning....what a mess IMO. If you could explain that to the hiring party like you just did on the forum, I would then tell them, "This is not gonna work and needs re-scheduling/redraw/re-Notary". I don't know what your arrangements were but I would expect payment for this one as a re-draw.

Reply by pat/WA on 11/5/10 9:54am
Msg #359791

Re: POA

I have always confirmed with the title company that they have a copy of the POA before I start the signing. If they request it, I ask for a copy to be included with the documents.

Reply by OR on 11/5/10 10:25am
Msg #359799

Re: POA

I did talk to Title they said she had one. I always call to find out exactly how they want everything signed. She also needed 3 POA's She only had one. The docs docs were prepared for only 1 POA.

The Borrower is the brother everyone else are co borrowers. I talked to the Sister in law in TX. She said her husband (brother) is in France and she assured me that they were not doing any refis. Brother will be home Saturday. Lets see if this gets re set today. I am too busy to do it. SS will call me. I'll let you all know what happens. This one stinks to high heavens.

Reply by OR on 11/5/10 6:37pm
Msg #359884

Re: POA UP DATE

No call back tiday. I would guess She did to do her refi with all the POA's she did not have.