Posted by Donna McDaniel on 11/15/10 5:56pm
Msg #361441

Question for Florida Notaries

I have been told by several female borrowers that the state of Florida requires a woman's middle name be replaced by her maiden name on her DL.

This creates a problem when the docs say Jane S Jones and her DL says Jane Doe Jones.

The signer provides satisfactory evidence, i.e. SS card or marriage license. I still cannot put Jane S Jones in the cert if her ID says Jane Doe Jones.

When Title hears the words "....who has represented to me..." that we are allowed to use, they always balk.

Today one actually told me to "forget it, we'll find someone else!".

This HAS to happen to other FL notaries, is there something in FL law that I am missing?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/10 6:21pm
Msg #361444

Depends on who you talk to, Donna

A friend of ours moved here about 2 years before us - when he went for his license, he was told he MUST use his entire middle name on his license;

When we moved here (different county) I went with my CT license and all other supporting paperwork and told them I want my name to be just like my CT license as that's how I hold title to everything (my middle initial only, designating my middle name, not my maiden name)...she said "okay"...and that's what I got. When I told her what our friend had gone through she said "that person was wrong, that's not required"...

As for this.."When Title hears the words "....who has represented to me..." that we are allowed to use, they always balk. " I've run into the reluctance too so I don't tell them any more since the SS/TC's are not my regulating authority on how to notarize a signature here - I ask for contact info to confirm with borrower, call the borrower to confirm names on ID, match names to paperwork and set up my certs accordingly. They get the package back with good notarizations in accordance with FL law and they get a recordable security instrument.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/15/10 6:51pm
Msg #361452

Re: Depends on who you talk to, Donna

Thanks, Linda. I don't know why I feel the need to try to explain myself to the Title Co, it only seems to complicate things. From here on I will do what I need to stay within the confines of the law.

Do you attach a preprinted cert or print the verbiage out on the doc itself?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/10 6:53pm
Msg #361454

Conform the pre-printed cert on the doc to comply

with FL law whenever possible - I avoid loose certs as much as I can...that's why setup sometimes takes a while. Also, remember, adding a separate page (loose cert) to the security instrument will add to the recording fees, which some companies really frown upon..

Reply by PAW on 11/15/10 7:41pm
Msg #361459

Ditto, here too.

As an aside, when we moved to FL, my wife had her middle initial on her DL, not her maiden name. We told the "manager" at the license place that her legal name is her first name, initial of her given middle name followed by her married last name. That was well over 10 years ago when other counties were demanding that women use there maiden name as their middle name and never use initials.

Personally, I think that's one of the reasons for the issue clearly documented in the Notary Reference Manual, pg 61, in the Q&A for the question: "What should I do if a person produces identification with a name different from the name being signed?" There are many instances where the name on the ID isn't the same as the name on docs, but there's supporting documentation for the name anomaly. The wording in the "representative" certificates, places the onus of proof squarely on the shoulders of the signer "who represented that he/she is" the name on the documents.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/16/10 6:42am
Msg #361481

Re: Ditto, here too.

*The wording in the "representative" certificates, places the onus of proof squarely on the shoulders of the signer "who represented that he/she is" the name on the documents.*

Fortunately, Texas law already does this.

I wish more Texas notaries closely read their laws to realize that 100% matching is not a requirement. Identifying *the signer* is.

Reply by yani_fl on 11/16/10 7:52am
Msg #361487

Re: Depends on who you talk to, Donna

I have run into the situation where title doesn't mind that you use the "represented to me" certificate but they do not want you to have the borrower sign both names as it is stated in the Florida manual ("You
may notarize her signature if she signs both names, but you may want to indicate that fact in your
notarial certificate.") What do you do in a situation like this?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/16/10 8:27am
Msg #361493

Re: Depends on who you talk to, Donna

Providing I have adequate proof that they're the same person as named on the docs, I have them sign as printed on docs and my cert has the name on the ID "who represented..." or "who took title as...".

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/15/10 8:33pm
Msg #361466

I would have notarized.

I encounter this situation a lot, because I notarize a lot of wills. Older women produce driver licenses which have their maiden name instead of their middle (Jane Smith Doe) when their actual name, and the name on the will, is Jane Ann Doe.

I don't have any problem with this. I find it unlikely that Jane Ann Doe stole Jane Smith Doe's driver license with the intention of executing a fake will, and that Jane Ann Doe happens to look identical to Jane Smith Doe.

Bottom line, the types of identification set forth in Florida Statutes are the types of "satisfactory evidence" that we can ***rely*** upon in identifying the signer. The NOTARY has to be satisfied, period. Personally, if Jane Ann Doe presents a D/L with Jane Smith Doe, I will be satisfied, because I understand how driver licenses in Florida work, and understand that many women have their maiden name instead of their true middle.

Maybe other states' notaries can't understand this, but this type of discrepancy is so common in Florida. Until there is a law that dictates otherwise, I believe that it is within the notary's discretion whether to accept the type of identification produced.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 11/15/10 8:43pm
Msg #361467

I didn't say I wouldn't notarize.

The question I had was regarding the use of "representative" certs as PAW stated above. No, I will not notarize without using one if the names are different, that is my issue.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/15/10 9:03pm
Msg #361468

Those "representative" certificates are a good suggestion

but they aren't really the law, either. That certificate is reserved for people who have been known by different names. But in my example, Jane Ann Doe is NOT known as Jane Smith Doe - that is just the name the DMV made her put on her driver license.

We can agree to disagree on this... but I will notarize for Jane Ann Doe without using the "representative" certificate even if her ID says Jane Smith Doe.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/10 9:13pm
Msg #361470

Re: Those "representative" certificates are a good suggestion

"but I will notarize for Jane Ann Doe without using the "representative" certificate even if her ID says Jane Smith Doe"

I sure hope you ask for SOMETHING proving she's Jane Ann Doe - since Jane Ann Doe and Jane Smith Doe are two very separate and distinct people.

Lacking some proof of the middle name Ann, I'd use the alternate wording.

Reply by PAW on 11/16/10 7:00am
Msg #361482

Agree with Linda

If the ID is not a match, as would be the case if the middle names were completely different, I too would use the "representative" form to show the name as ID'd and the name as used. If the issue of the "name" ever arose, it would be properly documented right in the notary certificate.

Even if the "representative" form isn't used, but there was supporting documentation of the differences in the name, I would show what additional forms of ID were used to satisfactorily identify the signer in the certificate as well as my journal.

It's next to impossible to over-document inconsistencies and anomalies.

Reply by MonicaFL on 11/16/10 9:43am
Msg #361513

Fed Gov changed my name

When my husband died, there were scads of paperwork coming from the FG (my husband was retired military -so you can just imagine) anyway, when the Gov (or, I should say the VA) sent out my first check, it had put my first name, my maiden name and then my last name on all documents. So, to not "mess with" the mess the government makes - I just changed my name on everything else to conform with the VA's interpretation of my "name". Works for me. Just my .02.

Reply by PAW on 11/16/10 12:25pm
Msg #361561

<<< ... if Jane Ann Doe presents a D/L with Jane Smith Doe, I will be satisfied ... >>>

Please note also the beginning of that section that reads: "For the purposes of this subsection, “satisfactory evidence” means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person whose signature is to be notarized is not the person he or she claims to be and any one of the following:" (followed by a list of acceptable forms of identification).

Just to clarify your position, what I'm hearing is that you would accept an ID (from the list) showing a middle name of SMITH as satisfactory for identifying the signer when the documents all show ANN as the persons middle name. Does that also hold true for when the documents read MARY ANNE MARRIED, but the person's ID reads MARY ANNE SINGLE? How about when the ID reads MARYANNE SINGLE MARRIED. Would that be considered "satisfactory" given the docs show MARY ANNE MARRIED?

>>> Maybe other states' notaries can't understand this, but this type of discrepancy is so common in Florida. <<<

Would you do the same if the ID presented to you was a driver's license from New York or Alaska, or any other state?

IMO, application of a policy or principle or method should be the same regardless of the form of ID or where the ID originated. If you apply your method using FL DL, it should apply to AK DL, etc. And vice versa.

At this point in the discussion, I consider this dialog to be purely academic since each of us will do what we feel is the proper thing to do. Only when our judgment is questioned by competent authority will we find out whether or not our decision was correct.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 11/16/10 1:28pm
Msg #361573

>>>Does that also hold true for when the documents read MARY ANNE MARRIED, but the person's ID reads MARY ANNE SINGLE? How about when the ID reads MARYANNE SINGLE MARRIED. Would that be considered "satisfactory" given the docs show MARY ANNE MARRIED?
<<<

No. If the last name or first name was different, I would use the "who represented to me" certificate. The Social Security Administration defines legal name as one first name and one last name. Mary Anne Single is a lot different than Mary Anne Married. In that case, I'd want to see a marriage license and would use the "represented" certificate. Discrepancies with a first and last name can not be overlooked, IMO. But, middle initials can be overlooked.

>>>Would you do the same if the ID presented to you was a driver's license from New York or Alaska, or any other state?<<<

No, because I don't know how the driver licensing process works in other states. I know that in Florida, many older women mistakenly have their maiden name on their driver license instead of their middle name. In my opinion, we have to be accomodating towards these women. They have no other way to get this straightened out other than to go to the DMV and ask to change it, which will no doubt lead to some rude examiner saying that it can't be done and demanding copies of birth certificates, marriage records, etc. When Jane Ann Doe presents me with her D/L saying Jane Smith Doe, and she acknowledges to me that her real name is Jane Ann Doe, I will accept that acknowledgment and notarize her signature.

Bottom line is, it is the notary's decision whether to accept a certain form of ID or not, as long as the form of ID is listed in the statutes and there is an absence of information which would lead someone to believe that the person is lying about their identity.

You are right, that we each feel we do the proper thing. 95% of the time I encounter this circumstance it is when I am notarizing a will - and in these circumstances I am usually quite comfortable, because the will was prepared based on information provided to us by the client, and the circumstances are such that I see no reason to question the person's identity.

Does this apply to every circumstance? No. There have been times when I wasn't quite comfortable and used the "represented" certificate even if I probably could have gotten by without it.

As to whether or judgment will be questioned by a competent authority, I don't see it happening any time soon with me. I take my notarial duties very seriously and would not notarize if I thought for one second that my act would be called into question.