Posted by LKT/CA on 10/27/10 8:38pm
Msg #358521

In reference to subcontracting loan signings

A simple disclaimer/caveat within the notary instruction sheet should solve that issue (example): "Assignments cannot be subcontracted. Notary fee is FORFEITED in its entirety if docs are returned with signing completed by a subcontracted Notary. In case of emergency, Notary shall call the SS/TC and return the job for re-assignment. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! That should nip this in the bud.

If I had a company, there would NO way to subcontract work without my knowledge. I'd know that I hired Suzie Q for a loan signing. I would stay connected with the TC and ask for a copy of a certain document. If that document's notarial certificate is from Betty J. and not Suzie Q., whom I hired, NEITHER would get paid, as per a disclaimer.

A copy of the document showing the borrower's typed name, signature, date and notarial certificate is proof solid who showed up to and completed the loan signing. That cannot be faked and if a Notary I did not hire completes the signing, no fee.

Therefore, if the Notary originally hired cannot do the job, there's nothing to gain by subcontracting the job so they might as well give the job back - as per a disclaimer.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/27/10 9:44pm
Msg #358530

I agree. It's always been my understanding that no subcontracting is allowed. I do know of some people who set up teams, and advertise their services that way.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 10/27/10 10:01pm
Msg #358536

I definetely agree. No subcontracting should be allowed without hiring entitiys knowledge.. I know of people that do this without hiring companies knowledge I can't understand why this is ok?

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/27/10 10:16pm
Msg #358539

Even if I was unaware that a Notary was part of a "team", it would be crystal clear that if he/she accepted the loan signing, I'm hiring HIM/HER and the notarial certs must bear THEIR siggy and seal. Anyone else's notarial cert means ZERO PAY.

I don't mind referrals if he/she cannot take the job initially, but *I* will negotiate the deal directly with another Notary. First Notary may submit the referral Notary's name and number and I'll handle the rest at my discretion/convenience. The first Notary is out of the picture at that point.

Teams would not get past me, either.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 10/28/10 12:10am
Msg #358547

did I miss something? This sounds like a follow to ??? n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/28/10 2:36am
Msg #358554

Did you mean to negotiate directly with hiring co? n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/28/10 5:24am
Msg #358556

This is in response to my opinion, posted elsewhere

I had said in a discussion on another forum that the ONLY way for a client to be certain any particular person contracted is indeed the same person who performs the closing is if they know what you look like (via photograph, D/L, etc), and they verify with the borrower.

Lisa - disclaimers don't much hinder those who wish to deceive, any more than laws prevent crimes.

Just one example: You hire Suzie. She hands the pkg to Betty, Betty does the signing, brings it back to Suzie for notarization. Tag-teams.

How would your disclaimer prevent this from happening, and how would you determine that it DID happen?

I reiterate - I have no problems sending TC's my D/L (redacted), and my face is plastered all over the internet.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/28/10 5:33pm
Msg #358635

Actually Renee...NOT in response to you

My OP was NOT in response to your specific opinion - I didn't know the issue was so widespread so I thought it was a good overall topic to discuss. I don't believe I quoted anything you wrote from the other forum. The reason I brought it up at all was because of a thread below mine which did not start out discussing subcontracting, but sort of turned in that direction. I thought that was a good time to write mine.

And trust me, Betty won't be getting all the docs signed to then bring to Suzie to notarize, then return...there are additional "filters" in place that will ensure that Suzie did the signing - as hired - and not Betty. I've thought this through more than you know <smile!>

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/29/10 4:33am
Msg #358697

ok, then let me clarify

I'd attempted to put your discussion here in some context, since there was some confusion about it.

What you posted here was a cut/paste compiled from a discussion elsewhere, where it was a response to my opinions. Hope that's more concise.

Reply by PAW on 10/28/10 8:47am
Msg #358569

" ... A copy of the document showing the borrower's typed name, signature and notarial certificate is proof solid who showed up to and completed the loan signing. That cannot be faked ... "

Not necessarily. I remember an incident a while back where the assigned NSA sent out another person (whom I do not believe was a notary) to do the signing. The person who did the signing did not perform the notarizations. Instead, he/she returned the documents, signed by the borrowers, to the assigned NSA who then systematically prepared, signed and sealed each document requiring notarization.

Also, there was an incident where the person doing the signing was the spouse of the NSA. The spouse used the seal of their notary spouse and signed the notary's name.

So it is not fool-proof to just look at the notary certificates.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/28/10 9:22am
Msg #358573

Not to mention a notary calling you up and asking if they can use YOUR stamp because they lost theirs. I'll NEVER forget that one!

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/28/10 7:59pm
Msg #358647

<<<I remember an incident a while back where the assigned NSA sent out another person (whom I do not believe was a notary) to do the signing. The person who did the signing did not perform the notarizations. Instead, he/she returned the documents, signed by the borrowers, to the assigned NSA who then systematically prepared, signed and sealed each document requiring notarization.>>>

I always give my perspective from a CA point of view. I suppose it may be an easier scheme to subcontract in other states where no journal or seal is required, little to no accountability on the Notary's part is required, and the Notary is not certifying their signature "......UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing paragraph is true and correct." as CA Notary's are. Yes, I'm quite aware that even with that sentence in the acknowledgment, there are still crooked CA Notaries.

In CA, we are required to keep a journal and by law, can only have one sequential.

The law looks at intent and what is customarily done (SOP). We know it is not standard operating procedure for the SS or TC to hire non-Notary Signing Agents. SOP is to hire Notary Signing Agents so anyone conducting a loan signing who is not a Notary first - well they could be in a heap of trouble.

Now about the journal....maybe in states where journals are not required, but is the NSA who subcontracts with Herbert Jones - how would the NSA obtain the borrowers signatures and thumbprints? Yes, a photocopy of their IDs will allow the NSA to record that in the journal but what about borrower signatures and thumbprints? Is she going to have Herbert come to her home to pick up HER journal to record borrowers signatures and thumbprints, which are required for DOTs in CA? If the NSA farms out 5 signings, will she have five journals floating around? Or will Herbert just skip that part and bring the signed docs back, unnotarized?

In CA, a Notary completing certificates when the signers were never in their presence PLUS keeping several journals at the same time when the law clearly states we are only to have one journal at a time, AND asking someone to do something illegal is extremely egregious. For an NSA to ask me to use his/her journal and bring docs back so he/she can complete the notarial certs is a crime all by itself. I suppose if one were a crook, they might as well go full force in their crookery?

SS/TC: Hello Mr. Borrower, I'm Shirley Scheduler calling from XYZ company and we're just following up with you regarding the loan signing you had two days ago. Do you have a minute to give me a little feedback on the appointment?

Mr. Borrower: Sure...

SS/TC: Great!! How did the loan signing go with Herbert Jones?

Mr. Borrower: There was no Herbert at our home, a lady came. She introduced herself as Lucy.

SS/TC: Oh? Lucy was there? Ok, how did it go?

Mr. Borrower: Went alright, I guess. Nice lady, dressed really nice. Signing went really fast....she sure was in a hurry - must have left a meatloaf in the oven. Funny thing though....Lucy didn't have us sign a journal or take our thumbprints....seemed kind of odd. I'm a General Contractor and get a lot of paperwork notarized, like Non-Collusion Affidavits and Release of Mechanics Lien documents. The Notary ALWAYS has me sign a journal and give thumbprints. Is there some new method in CA of notarizing?

SS/TC: No, not that we are aware of. Thank you for your time Mr. Borrower, your feedback is very helpful, have a nice day.

Great discussion, but again, since it's from a CA perspective there may be no cut and dry answer but I do say there are ways to curtail subcontracting. Companies will just have to get very creative in coming up with solutions and some may need more "filters" than others, depending on the location of the NSA.