Posted by Molly Richardson on 10/21/10 1:45pm
Msg #357635

Lost Docs - Blame The Notary?

If a notary does their job and drops the package in a drop box are they responsible if the package becomes lost?

I work for a wonderful signing company/person who is going to charge a notary almost $1000 for the investor $175, gift card to borrower $100, lost notary fee $175, redraw fee $500, etc. since the documents can not be located.

I completely understand the signing companies frustration however I don't understand how it is the notaries fault since she/he performed their task with due diligence. Every time they do their job they always put the docs in the drop box and the docs are always received at the other end. It seems to me that it is a FedEx/UPS issue - not a notary issue.

The signing company/person will now require that all their notaries go directly to FedEx/UPS hub to drop off packages. Where I live that will require a round trip drive of twenty miles and an hours time in traffic. I will have to charge an extra $20 minimum to make up for my loss in time, wear and tear in car/gas, etc. I am concerned that the signing company won't want to pay the extra fee but still have the requirement.

Seems like a horrible mess.

What are your thoughts and opinions....and remember, I have a long standing, wonderful relationship with this signing company as well and think the world of them....I just feel really bad for all involved but don't think the "bad" is on the notary.....it feels more like a FedEx/UPS issue to me.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 2:00pm
Msg #357636

I ALWAYS take the Docs to a place where I can get a receipt, to me it is your responsibility as the "stakeholder" to assure the Docs are delivered. I would NEVER put Docs in a drop box.

As far as having to make a payment? Well from your post it sounds like it wasn't you who is being blamed so I won't touch "that". JMHO

Reply by MW/VA on 10/21/10 2:13pm
Msg #357641

I agree with James. Like it or not, we become responsible

for those docs. I rarely use drop boxes, and live in an area where we have great service anyway. IMO it's another reason to carry some business liability insurance.

Reply by garland/CA on 10/21/10 2:00pm
Msg #357637

that doesn't seem right to make the notary pay all those fees. Has the notary used that drop box often in the past? Did the SS instructions say beforehand that a notary cannot use a drop box? Many notaries do not use drop boxes for this reason, but if it wasn't required the notary wasn't doing anything wrong. Unfortunately you can't get a receipt from a drop box, which more and more I am requesting either at Kinko's or UPS store when I drop packages there.

There are a few drop boxes I use and know the drivers who pick up from them, but my preference is to take it to a FedEx Kinkos or UPS store or the FedEx/UPS hubs in my area.

However, even if a package is dropped off and a receipt is obtained, the package can break open enroute. This happened to one of mine a few months ago. The SS called me and said "there were a few documents missing and my package was all messy" when it arrived at title so I need to go out and get the missing docs signed (none were to be notarized). I was not paid to do this, even though I knew it wasn't me. I never send packages off that way. The SS did not want to stick their neck out and defend me. I ended up just doing it as asked even though we both knew it was something that happened enroute. Unfortunately FedEx or UPS does not necessarily document it when this happens. They just close up the package and send it off. And the notary is often blamed and required to rectify. Thankfully it doesn't happen often.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 2:15pm
Msg #357642

Once an receipt is obtained the package is no longer your responsibility.

I once did a signing where the Docs were overnighted to borrower. The Docs were partially burned. The FedEx driver told the borrower that had a fire at the HUB (but they delivered anyway). The driver did his job. That was funny!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/21/10 2:09pm
Msg #357638

I always go to the counter and get a receipt...

Molly, I never rely on drop boxes....ever. I always get a counter receipt so I can prove that I dropped it off, even if it means charging extra to do so.

You don't have to go to a HUB necessarily. You can go to any authorized shipper... as long as you can get a receipt to prove chain of custody, it's good -- and make sure you use an authorized shipping center. You don't need to drive that far... there are plenty right in Palmdale.

In our area... the authorized ship centers for FedEX:

Mail America
1752 E Ave J
Lancaster, CA 93535

FedEx World Service Center (This is the Main Hub office)
133 East Ave K-6
Lancaster, CA 93535

Business Ctr & Mailbox Sv
3020 E Palmdale Blvd, Suite D
Palmdale, CA 93550

Mail-n-mor
4654 E Ave S, Suite B
Palmdale, CA 93552

American Postal Center
2315 E Palmdale Blvd, Suite G
Palmdale, CA 93550

American Post 'n Parcel
43759 15th St W
Lancaster, CA 93534

Mail America
2551 E Ave S, Suite G
Palmdale, CA 93550

E-z Mail Plus
2763 W Ave L
Lancaster, CA 93536

FedEx Office Print & Ship Center
1113 W Ave P
Palmdale, CA 93551

All American Shipping
4083 W Ave L
Lancaster, CA 93536

Ave P Mail-n-more
3053 Rancho Vista Blvd, Suite H
Palmdale, CA 93551

Westside Mail & Services
42263 50th St W, Suite 106
Quartz Hill, CA 93536

Cal City Business Park
8201 California City Blvd, Suite A
California City, CA 93505





For UPS:

The UPS Store
38713 TIERRA SUBIDA AVE
STE 200
PALMDALE, CA 93551

AVE P MAIL & MORE
3053 RANCHO VISTA BLVD H
PALMDALE, CA 93551

ALL AMERICAN SHIPPING S.C.
4083 W AVENUE L
LANCASTER, CA 93536

The UPS Store
2010 W AVENUE K AVE
LANCASTER, CA 93536

PRINT SHOP
3807 W SIERRA HWY #6
ACTON, CA 93510

AMERICAN POST & PARCEL
43759 15TH ST W
LANCASTER, CA 93534

MAIL AMERICA
2551 E AVENUE S G
PALMDALE, CA 93550

AMERICAN POST N PARCEL
1012 E AVE J
LANCASTER, CA 93535

MAIL AMERICA
1752 E AVENUE J
LANCASTER, CA 93535

The UPS Store
19425 SOLEDAD CANYON B
CANYON COUNTRY, CA 91351

Reply by 101livescan on 10/21/10 2:10pm
Msg #357639

There is something to be said for dropping the package where you can actually receive a confirmation printed out (FEDEX), and have a copy of the airbill. Lost package? or damaged package? Well, I once dropped two UPS envelopes in a drop box. Somewhere between that drop box and the escrow company in Omaha, the envelopes became saturated with perfume, obviously a larger package was dropped and my two envelopes contents were stained and stunk to high heaven, all the signatures were obliterated and could not be presented to the lender. I ended up having to resign both packages gratis, because I needed to keep these vendors in my sphere. Sometimes you take hits. It's just absolutely not the notary's fault, and not the ss's fault, nor lender, escrow or client. How do these costs get absorbed? Signing service is just trying to keep the escrow/lender happy. I however do not think the notary should take the hit! It only takes one of these to completely undermine your stamina in this already difficult and challenging business. I do believe these are rare occurences. Definitely a third party courier/shipping issue.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/21/10 2:21pm
Msg #357646

If I happen to drop docs at a FedEx Office or UPS Store right after the appointment, I do ask for a receipt. However, I drop most of my packages at an authorized shipper near my home, Mail-N-More, and to the best of my knowledge they do not issue receipts. I will ask next time I'm there but I believe I asked about it when I first stated in this biz and they said they don't issue receipts.

It would simply not be feasible for me to drive an extra hour round trip to drop every package at FedEx Office or UPS store. I've also used drop boxes many times without issue.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 2:30pm
Msg #357651

Copperhead,..if they don't issue receipts do they log-in the packages a received? I know the drivers have to scan them in when they pick them up but who has ownership between the time you drop them off and the driver scans them in??

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/21/10 2:36pm
Msg #357654

James, I have seen them take my package and start doing something on their computer. I think they get a small fee for facilitating the drop-off for FedEx or UPS. About 80% of the time they are busy with other customers and they know me and just put their hand out for my package so I don't have to wait in line.

But I will ask them next time I go in there - it will be tomorrow morning.

Reply by Pat/CA on 10/21/10 2:40pm
Msg #357657

Recently I did a walk-in drop-off and they handed me a receipt from the register. This was at an authorized drop-off site. I was told that on the CASH REGISTER receipt (that I almost threw out) was the tracking number of both packages. I had no idea, learn something new every day!

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 2:42pm
Msg #357659

I've seen them do that and asked them to print out a copy of "that". I'd be interested in knowing what they tell you. thanks

Reply by rengel/CA on 10/21/10 4:05pm
Msg #357669

I've had them tell me to "just drop it on the counter," but I always tell them, "no, I want a receipt."
They don't like it but I'm not leaving without my CYA.

Reply by Jayhawk/KS on 10/21/10 8:39pm
Msg #357708

You have no idea how lucky you are to live in places where you have the option to have a place to drop docs. Our UPS place is only open from 4:30-6 P.M. There is another place you can drop them off, but you have to pay an extra $1.00 to do that. But, they leave the packages sitting out where anyone can grab them, it's a rental facility and people are in and out of there all day. We have no Fed EX counter, just a box. So, just consider yourselves very lucky. I just have to hope and pray that the box thing works. I can't tell you the hours I have sat by the Fed EX box, because it was so full, there was no way I could cram my envelope in it! One night it was over 2 hours and 45 minutes before the very late driver got there to open it up and get the packages.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/21/10 2:28pm
Msg #357648

I for one avoid drop boxes for this very reason...

I go to an actual Kinkos/Fed Ex location and get a RECEIPT...that way I'm covered....

We are certainly NOT responsible for shipping errors, but it sure would've helped that NSA if they had a receipt to show they dropped off the packet.

If I were that nsa, I'd be calling FedEx and asking if they received or picked up ANY of the packages in that drop box that night, who was the driver, etc. I'd also file a frickin' claim if need be, anything to prove that I did my job.

Worst case scenario is the nsa DIDN'T do their job and simply lost or forgot to drop the packet...that happens more than we care to know....

Reply by PAW on 10/21/10 2:29pm
Msg #357650

It must be nice to be able to drop packages at a HUB, FedEx Kinkos, UPS Store or authorized shipping facility that will provide counter receipts. Unfortunately, none of that is viable in my area. The nearest facility where I could get a FedEx receipt would be about 50 miles out of my way. UPS is a bit closer, but I do very little with UPS. Thankfully, our local pack 'n ship is an authorized shipper, but they won't issue counter receipts unless they prepare the airbill. Many businesses in the area drop their packages there so there's always a lot of stuff to be picked up. They (FedEx driver) scans everything in as they load it on their dolly to take out to the truck. Never had any problems there. Once I had to drop in a drop box. The driver decided not to pick up that day, so the docs didn't get to the destination on the next day. I told the title company that in order to meet the pickup demand, I would have to drop it in an unattended drop box. They (the title company) understood. They filed a grievance with FedEx about the missed pickup. I don't know how it came out.

Reply by HKT_TX on 10/22/10 3:56pm
Msg #357812

I do not have access to a Fed Ex hub, closest one is about 80 miles from my house, and I usually drive 70 miles in the other direction for closings, so I have to use the drop box. Never had any problems (knock on wood)!

Reply by Pat/CA on 10/21/10 2:32pm
Msg #357652

That's insane! $500.00 redraw fee, give me a break! Not to mention the other fees.

In mountainous areas, one would have to drive an additional 30-60 miles in the opposite direction of the signing in order to avoid drop-boxes. If I'm signing in the area of a city, I do drop it off at a location that I can obtain a receipt. If not, I know of no company that is going to pay me additional for traveling to the city to do so. Besides the money I could possibly lose turning down other signings just to get there and back.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 2:39pm
Msg #357656

PAW and Pat have acceptions but

that can be remedied by the TC/SS agreeing to arrange pick-up service if it is unrealistic for you to drop the packages off. There is a fee for picking up but it's a lot less then the cost of you having to drive fifty miles.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/21/10 3:03pm
Msg #357662

So true....!

In fact, it's actually a pretty small fee. UPS charge $8.00 for a pickup at your door. I recently sent 4 large boxes back to Dell and I didn't want to lug them to the shipper, so I paid the $8 to have them come to me.

Reply by PAW on 10/21/10 7:45pm
Msg #357696

Re: So true....!

FedEx charges $13.00 for home pickup and $11.00 for commercial building pickup. I do think the pickup charges vary depending on route population and servicing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/21/10 2:40pm
Msg #357658

That's why my fees are what they are

I NEVER use drop boxes either for just this reason - I know they say "never say never" but I can - I have no drop boxes in my lil town here so I have to drive to the Mailbox Store or the local UPS store in order to drop the package - both provide receipts.....

When discussing the signing with the hiring party, once I find out exactly where the signing is I know how far I have to travel, package drop included, and my fee includes consideration for going to a facility and dropping that package.

No drop boxes for me..

Reply by Les_CO on 10/21/10 2:44pm
Msg #357661

As long as the NSA can prove the signed package passed from her hands to someone else’s (as per instructed) she should have no liability. Most couriers only insure documents for $100. I believe the remainder would fall on the Title Company, the Lender or even the borrower if they requested the service (remote closing). Packages DO get lost (Tornadoes in Kansas, hurricanes on the Gulf coast, train wrecks, aircraft crashes, etc.) but almost on a daily basis some notary puts a FedEx package in a UPS box, or transposes the labels, or discovers the package under the dog blanked in the back seat. As I, and others have stated here many times GET A RECIEPT, or accept the liability. JMO.

Reply by John Schenk on 10/21/10 4:24pm
Msg #357670

You ought to be able to count on the courier to pick up your package from a drop box and get it delivered. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. One time I was headed out of town after a closing the opposite direction of the hub so I dropped in a FedEx box. Lo and behold that driver evidently decided that he wasn't going to pick up that box on that particular day. I get a call about 11:00 the next morning asking me where in the hell the docs are, and of course I tell'em I dropped them in the box at such and such location. I have the number to the local FedEx hub and I call them and speak to the supervisor and tell him where I dropped it and that it hasn't been delivered. He sends somebody out there and what do ya know? There it is in the bottom of the box where it should have gotten picked up the day before. That was the last time I ever used a drop box. I always drop at the UPS hub or FedEx hub, except on Sat. when you can ONLY drop at the UPS Store, which is out of the way but the only way you're gettin something out on Sat.. Mine got delivered the next day and ahead of the RTC date so it wasn't a biggy and there were no repercussions, but it still taught me a lesson.

JJ

Reply by Molly Richardson on 10/21/10 4:57pm
Msg #357677

I appreciate the list of all mail locations in lancaster/palmdale area however you can't always get a receipt from them unless you use their FedEx/UPS account number. If you do a signing for a signing company, an account number is usually provided, thus negating the ability of being able to obtain a receipt.

Looks like we just need to be really prudent in doing our job - not that we are not already doing that.....

Good luck to all!

Thank you for the input.

Molly

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 5:02pm
Msg #357681

>>>>>>>If you do a signing for a signing company, an account number is usually provided, thus negating the ability of being able to obtain a receipt. <<<<<<<<

Not true, I do it every day!

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/21/10 5:22pm
Msg #357685

It's unfortunate, but unless the package is "checked in" where it can be traced, drop boxes are unreliable. Check out how much it would cost to have docs picked up and adjust your fee accordingly.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/21/10 6:36pm
Msg #357689

Always give to a live person ......

I was reading this and other forums long before I began closing loans and read the many horror stories. As a result, I have never use a drop box except in one case where I was way out in the boonies and the company wanted it shipped that day. I told them that I would not take the assignment unless they sent me a release of claims releasing me of any responsibility should the docs become lost. They did, so I dropped them in a box in the boonies.

I have had other requests to drop in boxes same day when the live person facility was out of driving range for a same day drop. When I requested the release of claims, they dropped the same day requirement.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 10/21/10 6:38pm
Msg #357691

I put docs in drop box if there is no check involved. And I use the same drop box all the time. If I use another I write on the order which box I put the package in that way if the package is lost the company (UPS FEDEX) will ask where the pkg was dropped. In 10 years I had one loan package lost it scared me to death. UPS lost the pkg they had record of picking it up but it disappeared after the pickup so I was off the hook. Now if there is a check involved I drive it to FEDEX or UPS.

Reply by Doris_CO on 10/21/10 9:35pm
Msg #357718

My daughter-in-law's mother told me her story of dealing with a FedEx drop box. It didn't have anything to do with loan docs. She was sending her tax information, which included original receipts, to her accountant who lived in another state. She dropped the large envelope in a FedEx drop box but the accountant never received the info and the envelope never showed up. She called FedEx and they checked the drop box and it was empty yet the driver had no record of picking up the envelope. It turned out that FedEx had sent out a new drop box and the box that this mother had put her package in was picked up and sent to the warehouse. Months later they discovered the one lone envelope sitting in that drop box stored in the warehouse. I have never used a drop box after hearing that story. I'll go to a manned station.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/22/10 7:14am
Msg #357734

Adding just a couple points ...

1. maybe reliability of drop-boxes has to do with regular use, I don't know - but I use drop-boxes exclusively, same ones always (fortunately, I have late pick-ups at both UPS & FedEx within blocks of my house), and they serve a decent-sized local business community. That might influence the service, I don't know - but in 5 years, I've never had a problem. I also always use labels I generate on-line, or labels sent w/pkg; never have done a hand-written one.

2. Those that have large, corporate accounts (i.e.$$$) can get A LOT farther with couriers than we can. Pkgs DO get damaged or lost - rarely, but they do. My last employer had accts with both couriers, and when a damaged pkg or lost pkg occurred - lol, reps baring gifts showed up w/in the hour (how I got my UPS sweater!). Yes, they CAN call the drivers & they CAN have drivers divert their route immed, they CAN inspect a box immed, and they DO jump all over damaged pkgs. (Mostly they get damaged by getting caught in conveyor belts, or falling off the conveyor & get run over by hi-lo's (these sometimes will get wet, and have tire tracks over them).

3. Any company receiving large volumes of pkgs KNOWS all this, too. It can get difficult if the pkg never tracks - if it ever happens to me, I will A) ask the account holder to call the courier and have them go to the box and B) I will be waiting at that box while it's inspected.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/22/10 8:42am
Msg #357741

Always note the tracking number of packages

I've been able to prove the package was "picked up" from the drop box, and lost during transit.
It also may behhove you to travel to the drop box and check where they keep supplies:
I once found a two week old loan package that was erroneously placed in the supply area, instead of the actual drop slot. Title was astonished and grateful when I called them to notify them!

Reply by SharonMN on 10/22/10 11:10am
Msg #357761

If hiring agency says drop with FedEx, and notary dropped with FedEx, not the notary's problem if FedEx loses it. The notary performed her job as requested by the hiring agency.

If hiring agency adds requirement that docs be dropped at hub, notary should not use drop box but may charge accordingly if the requirement adds work/time/mileage.

I always amend language in contracts to limit my liability to waiver of my fee in case of mistakes. No courier that I am aware of will accept liability for consequential damages.

Reply by Mary Ellen Elmore on 10/22/10 6:35pm
Msg #357830

UPS here will not take any pkgs that are being shipped with an account number.

For me to take a pkg, FedEx or UPS to a actual store with a person would be at least an hour and a half drive one-way in traffic.