Posted by James Dawson on 10/29/10 7:07pm
Msg #358860

NSA Chronicles.....Bad notary

Anybody ever had a SS informed them they were be being removed from their "preferred" notary list because of a complaint by the borrower?

What was the complaint?

the borrower asked for a refund when they found out you DID NOT get the notary fee listed on the HUD1. When they found out about the SS getting the fee and paying you less, they complained to the TC since they didn't think it was fair. The TC informs the SS a fee "adjustment" must be made because the borrower refuses to pay it. The SS get's pixxed off at you because the borrower finds out how much you are actually being paid.
SS calls you and says NEVER tell the borrower how much you are being paid. You never get your kiss ( as Cari sometimes says). LOL

Reply by Integrity Notaries - Tennessee on 10/29/10 7:52pm
Msg #358868

Just my thoughts.....The discussion with the borrower on how much someone is getting paid should never happen. When someone agree to take an assignment for a fee then they shouldn't complain to anyone. We all know some companies try to lowball you but if you take it, it's your fault. I do think it unprofessional to discuss that information.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 7:57pm
Msg #358871

That's definitely one side of the story but what do you do if you're asked about your fee? Lie? I won't!

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 7:58pm
Msg #358872

PS not a lowball fee but not $250 either.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 10/29/10 8:05pm
Msg #358873

A couple of months ago I had a borrower ask me if I was being paid the $250 shown on the HUD as notary fees. Actually, he said he hoped I was being paid the fee shown.

I told him I was receiving "almost" the full fee shown and that figure may include other notarizations required for their loan. He was satisfied with that. (I did not tell him exactly how much I was billing the law firm, but it was $200).

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 8:28pm
Msg #358879

I don't think there's a problem with that. The point of my post was, the borrower wanted a refund because they felt I should be paid the amount on the HUD1. Once I explained the process, I do it every time so the borrower knows how I fit in which helps me to get the job done, they ALL think it's unfair to varying degrees.
It is unprofessional to be dishonest, for any reason, period. People like to know what they're spending their money on and how.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 10/29/10 8:36pm
Msg #358882

"I do it every time so the borrower knows how I fit in which helps me to get the job done, they ALL think it's unfair to varying degrees."

Just curious, how does it help you get the job done?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/10 8:28pm
Msg #358880

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

but you don't get specific either - if the borrower is demanding an answer, simply say "My fee is included in that number" - and that's it - if he pushes, just let him know you can't, and won't, discuss your fees with him....period. I doubt he'll blow off the whole loan because you're being prudent and professional - and you save a business relationship.

MHO

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 8:37pm
Msg #358883

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

We all have our own views...I personally don't have a problem disclosing what I get paid. I do have a problem with seeing "notary fee" on the HUD1 and the borrower thinks that's what I'm being paid and treat's me accordingly. Some SS put my name and fee on the HUD1, I like that. I am not a businessman but some of this "business stuff" sucks to me.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 10/29/10 8:45pm
Msg #358885

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

I would not point it out, but if asked, I would not lie or give them a vague answer, but explain that the fee I am getting is part of the total because there is another company involved that hired me.

Reply by Seanaidan on 10/29/10 9:07pm
Msg #358889

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

Go find a job that you don't need to comment to customers. You do not understand how stupid you sound.

Reply by John Tennant on 10/29/10 9:57pm
Msg #358897

Seanaidan n/m

Reply by John Tennant on 10/29/10 10:02pm
Msg #358898

OPs, too soon.

I am with James on this one. I have spent many years in the Automotive industry as a consultant. To be successful many times I had to be truthful, no matter how it hurt. Why lie?? State how much is yours, and how much probably goes to the entity that hired you. If they don't like it, let them complain to the LO. You should not be making decisions for them.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/30/10 12:03am
Msg #358907

In 10 years I've never been asked, curious how the subject

comes up, because all of the borrower's that I deal with are concerned about their note, hud, pay off etc being correct.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/30/10 5:35am
Msg #358919

Seanaidan, love how you contributed to this post...NOT!

What are you that lazy, ignorant or STUPID that you can't fathom enough mental thought as to write a real comment or response?

Reply by 1st_up on 10/30/10 3:09pm
Msg #358970

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

It's not nice to call someone stupid, behave like a gentleman.

Reply by John Tennant on 10/30/10 5:25pm
Msg #358979

James did not call anybody stupid. Reread the forum n/m

Reply by 1st_up on 10/30/10 9:17pm
Msg #358992

Re: James did not call anybody stupid. Reread the forum

it wasn't James that I was referring to. but someone called James stupid

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/10 8:52pm
Msg #358887

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

I'm with Linda. I tell them I'm paid out of that amount and leave it at that. If they press, I tell them I'm not allowed to discuss my specific fee. No one's going to get angry or walk away from a loan because you won't answer their tacky question.

Reply by Seanaidan on 10/29/10 9:08pm
Msg #358890

Re: NSA Chronicles.....no James, you don't lie

Well said.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/29/10 9:44pm
Msg #358894

Good reply, Al. We do not disclose our fees. BTW, in the

corporate world people are fired every day for discussing their salary with others.
It's taboo.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 9:52pm
Msg #358896

Re: Good reply, Al. We do not disclose our fees. BTW, in the

Everyone in the corporate world knows what the salary ranges are and has a contact in HR. I spent the better part of 37 years there and this definitely isn't the corporate world by a long shot.

I mentioned earlier everyone had their own view, what's wrong with that? I will never argue with anyone on here.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/30/10 5:43am
Msg #358920

you've seriously have it backwards Marilyn....

If a human resource personnel discloses employees salaries to those that are otherwise not supposed to know, then I can see how they can potentially get fired as that is confidential in-house (w/in the department) information not for public knowledge (and assuming also that the salaries in question are NOT government employees because those salaries are in fact public information btw)

However, if I were to openly discuss my salary with my co-worker, that is not going to get me fired. If I want to brag or complain about MY own salary is, then that's on me.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/30/10 7:15am
Msg #358930

Marilyn is correct regarding most corporate policies

I spent my whole 'other' life within the felt-lined cubicles of Corporate America. The written policies always included that disclosing your salary to a co-worker was grounds for immediate dismissal. I believe this policy is prohibited in a few states, but definitely alive & well in most - to the point that it becomes 'conventional wisdom'.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/30/10 7:01am
Msg #358929

agreed - don't ask, don't tell, & the myth of this 'lie'

Unless your NAME & fee are on the Hud, it's inaccurate to even say "my fee is part of this fee". That might be the general assumption, but more often we're paid out of either the title agent's operating funds (which is why we're more often paid 30 days out), or we're paid by a SS who is paid out of title agent's operating funds. Of course, their operating funds come from their collective settlement profits.

The borrower didn't contract for your services, didn't select you, has nothing to do with paying you, it isn't exactly true or correct that it's "his money" that ends up in your wallet. Hence, if a loan doesn't fund and you still get paid ...where do you suppose THOSE dollars came from ? Same place - general operating funds, from collective profits.

It's a very tacky question to be asked. I just say "I'm under contract." and pick up the next page to be signed.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/30/10 5:28am
Msg #358918

If the BO is that finicky and wants to know where

every nickel and dime is going to that he's paying for, there MAY be a very good chance that the loan can be put on hold, if the accuracy of the figures are questioned at the table.

If the notary figure is off, what OTHER figure is or that I am overpaying for?

I would've insisted on a redo of the HUD, showing each and every nickel~n~dime in place. The whole reason for the new HUD is for this very purpose - better clarity for the BO and precise accountability for the lender.

Though, its highly unlikely that the BO will blow off his loan, the probability is still there IMO.

I agree with James. If the BO's want to know, then they have a right to know. If they ask, tell.

Reply by Stoli on 10/29/10 11:46pm
Msg #358904

I think you guys are missing the point of James' post. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 10/30/10 2:50am
Msg #358909

Agree, Stoli. I never perpetrate the lie that *I* receive

the amount on the 'Notary fee' line - which many borrowers read and comment on. I simply say that ~I~ don't get that whole fee (unless my name is on the HUD-1), and never divulge my fee. That said, I've had many borrowers over the years say they hoped I was getting paid well for this service.

It's not a secret exactly, but if I'm a sub for an SS or TC? Well, they're all part of our Industry too, and *they're* fees aren't invisible. As a Third Party Vendor, I'm for the most part, incorporated into the remote signing convenience mechanism provided by our Industry.

jmho.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/30/10 2:56am
Msg #358910

Re: Agree, Stoli. I never perpetrate the lie that *I* receive

I agree. There is such a thing as "TMI". If asked, I also mention that I'm hired by a third party and my fee comes out of that. Asking someone how much they make IS tacky - even though they are paying for it. However, if I'm working directly for a title co and I'm on the HUD, there's no discussion because it's there plain as day for them to see.

I've also rarely had this come up, aside from the occasional "I hope they're paying you well for this..." or something to that effect. That's when I bite my tongue to keep from asking them to be sure to tell that to their contacts.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/30/10 5:07am
Msg #358917

this recently happened to you as you mentioned this before

didn't the BO see your fee as it was already written in your notary journal??

And so now you're being punished because of this? The SS are idiots! And so not good at all for that SS or TC to lose such an excellent nsa...their loss James.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/30/10 8:33am
Msg #358937

Re: this recently happened to you as you mentioned this before

We are all differently and have different value systems. Mine is no better than anybody else's, it's mine.

I would never tell someone my inanimate ideas are better than yours. I expressed mine and no body's reasoning will change mine.....just 'cause. Cari, Stoli, John we think alike on this issue, the others don't, fine!

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 10/30/10 8:59am
Msg #358941

Re: this recently happened to you as you mentioned this before

This post began with you telling the borrowers what your fee is as opposed to what's on the HUD. This is not the first time you have done this, you said as much in a follow up post. It seems YOU are the one bringing the subject up to the BOs. Why, who knows! I'm sure you have your reasons. I have NEVER had anyone ask me what I am being paid.
Am I the only one who believes you shouldn't seek out trouble where there is none?

Reply by jba/fl on 10/31/10 7:46pm
Msg #359080

Re: this recently happened to you as you mentioned this before

"Am I the only one who believes you shouldn't seek out trouble where there is none? "

No - that is part and parcel of good operating standards.

Reply by Les_CO on 10/30/10 9:37am
Msg #358943

If I’m asked, and I’ve only been asked a few times, I always tell the borrower what I’m being paid for the assignment. I even show them the confirmation stating my fee. Why not? It’s their money that pays my fee they deserve to know. I have NEVER had a problem justifying my fees. I also explain how I get hired, and what part the SS, or title company play in the process. If the title company or the SS can’t explain or justify their fees that’s, their problem. Years ago I did a lot of work for a title company here in CO that always put my fee, and named me on the HUD. I never had a problem with that, and I did hundreds.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/30/10 10:13am
Msg #358949

Thanks Les...but look out for the attacks..LOL

I'm sure there are many more who feel the same way but intimidate on this forum is a way of life. Some don't want to live like that so they just shake their heads, at all of us squabbling about BS; yes, I brought it up.

Reply by Chucky on 10/30/10 3:34pm
Msg #358972

Re: Thanks Les...but look out for the attacks..LOL

Amen James! I'm a new signing agent and have read this forum since joining a few months back. I learned early on not to ask "newbie" questions. I love it for the good info I pick up but I think most of us could do without the attitudes we see way too often!

FYI: I respect your opinion as much as anyone I have read on this site!

Reply by James Dawson on 10/30/10 3:40pm
Msg #358973

Re: Thanks Les...but look out for the attacks..LOL

Thank you Chucky...A lot of us communicate via Private message just to keep the hawks off. Just remember the forum belongs to all of us. If you ever need any help and don't want to post, you can P/M anyone you care to and me specially..and if I don't have the answer, I know how to find it and will teach you also. James

Reply by Les_CO on 10/30/10 3:47pm
Msg #358974

Re: James

I’m glad you did James. I just read through this whole chain again. Previously I just glanced at most replies. I am truly amazed at some of the responses. Some here that say they have done over ten thousand closings, but apparently don’t think we as Notary Signing Agents are part of the ‘settlement services’ process. I say just screw something up and see if the loan closes. We as “notaries” may not be part of the settlement process, but we as ‘Notary Signing Agents’ definitely are. When we present, have signed, and notarize signatures on a loan package, we are doing EXACTLY what an ‘escrow officer’ notary that is employed by a Title Company is doing in the Title Company’s office. What we do are ‘remote closings’ and as such we are an integral part of the ‘settlement’ process. It is my opinion that our fees should be on the HUD 1 Settlement Statement. The entire purpose of RESPA is to provide disclosure of the ‘settlement service’ costs to the borrower. To say that our fees are none of the borrowers business is absurd. If the Title Company charges the borrower say $250 for a ‘remote closing’ or ‘Notary’ fee, and Title pays a SS $250, and you hired by the SS get part of that $250, then if asked say so. If the Title Company charges $250 for a ‘remote closing’ or ‘Notary’ fee, and only pays you $100, then the borrower is due a refund. If the Title Company keeps the difference, they are in my opinion committing a RESPA violation. RESPA prohibits anyone “from accepting any part of a charge for services not preformed”. Some say that Title pays our fees out of their ‘general account’, just like they pay their utility bill, so it’s not any of the borrowers business. Excuse me? Again I say we as NSA’s are an integral part of the closing or “settlement services,” and as ‘independent contractors’ not Title Company employees we should be paid out of Titles escrow account. I will agree that many Title Companies do lump or fees into their ‘bundled services’ fees, and pay themselves out of escrow, and then pay us part of the ‘notary’ or ‘remote closing’ fee out of their operating account perhaps many days after closing. That does not make it right. I say the borrower pays us, even though indirectly, and it IS their money in our pocket, and they not only deserve the truth, they are legally entitled to it. JMO

Reply by James Dawson on 10/30/10 4:03pm
Msg #358975

Very well stated!!!!!

My feelings exactly...I must also admit (MichAl reminded me) that some SS instructions state do not disclose and of course if you're working for them you should follow you hiring party's request......I don't work for those types anymore.

Reply by Les_CO on 10/30/10 4:50pm
Msg #358978

Re: Very well stated!!!!!

You mean that the SS says please don’t tell the borrower what your fee is as opposed to what the borrower is actually paying? The SS’s that I’ll work for have no problem with justifying their fees to the lender, title, or the borrower if asked. They do a proper job for a proper fee. Those that border on, or actually are not legitimate can’t. Some will ask you to backdate too. Just as some SS that’s been in business for a week and has $20 in capital wants ME to sign a 6 page non-compete agreement. I’ve been in the Real Estate, Title, and Notary business for 30 years, with thousands of clients/contacts. Life is too short to suffer fools.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/31/10 1:17am
Msg #359000

yep!

I respect your opinion Les as I don't have 1/10 the experience you have in this field. It's simple and honest which is the most important thing. Not masked with cliches, bogues rules and hidden agendas.. Life is too short, thanks for all you say in general.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/1/10 8:18am
Msg #359125

Les - a couple of additional points

I absolutely agree that our services are a part of the whole, included in Settlement Services.

My view on disclosing our fee to the borrower UNLESS we're specifically named on the Hud is a separate point - and I'd like to add:

MERS is often part of settlement procedures, not free, never parted out on the HUD.
Abstracting is part of settlement, often 3rd party, yet rarely is named or parted out.
Many lenders use document provision services (such as GMD) - never saw that parted out, & it's not free.
Many 'inside' closers are actually 1099'd on a per/closing fee - never saw that parted out

Those are things off the top of my head that I think are pretty relative to our services, though there's a long grocery list of things that come out of Operating Funds that might not be as directly relative. It really gets to be a large 'grey-ish' area, and I think this is one of the reasons RESPA has gone with the lump-sum idea; to draw a finer line between black/white & lose the grey. RESPA doesn't regulate what is paid out of a Settlement Agent's operating fund. Personally, I think the lump-sum delivery is far better for consumers - it does away with a lot of the games that used to be played on Huds, lumps 'garbage' fees in with everything else, call it what you will but it's going in the lump-sum number and THAT is what consumers will look at for comparison purposes. To that end, I'm not a big fan of parting each & every fee out on the Hud.

Going to the comparison someone mentioned about their grocery receipt - as consumers, we absolutely want to know exactly what we're paying for, and we know AND we assume that A)the price we pay for a can of corn is retail, and that numerous costs & profits to a multitude of entities are included in what we pay. We don't question that - we look at the lump-sum price, and when we compare prices, that's the only number we care about. (I'm not saying this is an apples-to-apples analogy, just commenting on that reference.)

Without wanting to be redundant (but still doing it ...) - what you propose is for the fees to be parted out as a better form of disclosure, and to be paid out of escrow as a matter of course (or RESPA), UNLESS the loan doesn't close. Then you want to switch gears and be paid out of operating funds - or, the dollars of other borrowers whose loans HAVE funded?

Reply by Les_CO on 11/1/10 11:23am
Msg #359173

Re: Les - a couple of additional points/Renee

To answer your last question first. For me…Yes I would have no problem with working with Title Companies that named me and my fee on the HUD and paid me directly out of their escrow account. I had a relationship with Security Title Guaranty Company here in Denver for years that did precisely that. (They were part of the Mercury Companies that went bankrupt, and were ultimately purchased by another Title Company.) And if the loan did not close I would be willing to absorb my fee (not get paid) as a cost of doing business. In the last say one hundred loans I’ve closed maybe one didn’t close. And may I say in this scenario my fee would be $150, paid by the borrower, out of escrow, day of closing. No 45 day BS, no trying to explain to the borrower that the $300 “notary fee” really was not all going to me that some of it was going to Title to offset their other costs. No making a half dozen calls and sending in many invoices to try and get paid. If they don’t pay me, and the loan closes, I simply file a complaint with HUD and The Insurance Commission. YES! I would like that far better than what today’s NSA’s job market has become.
As to your other questions, Yes I agree many of the costs, and the Title Company expenses are lumped together, and some charged to the borrower that perhaps shouldn’t be. Title does NOT have to use a doc prep company, and charge the borrower for it, they CAN do it themselves. The same goes for the lender, however today most companies add on a doc prep fee. As for MERS, I would think that too would be a cost to the lender. Sometime we see $40-$60 “Courier Fees” It rarely costs Title this amount. Today it’s common to see “closing fees” anywhere from $300 to $800 with everything lumped together. I could go on…..but…..
My main point is that more and more we find the Notary Fees, or remote closing fees lumped into the “closing fees” that Title gets the day the loan funds, then and Title can then pay us what they want, when they want, and if not, we have virtually no recourse.
If you don’t feel like telling the borrower what you make…don’t. I do and will if I’m asked.