Posted by Sal Servin on 10/31/10 12:43pm
Msg #359011

New Guidelines

Begining Nov. 1, 2010 Notaries will have to notarize docs at closing in front of borrowers.
For your info.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 10/31/10 12:55pm
Msg #359012

Isn't that what you do now?

Reply by Sal Servin on 10/31/10 1:02pm
Msg #359013

Yes, especially month end when you have 10-12 signings per day.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/31/10 1:46pm
Msg #359016

It's required by law of FL notaries - and IMO even if it were not notarial law, it's a good practice to follow -

Reply by Alz on 10/31/10 1:47pm
Msg #359017

Would you please elaborate?

I'm not sure I understand your statement because I thought we all notarize the necessary documents in front of the signer(s) regardless of the nature of the documents.

Reply by Pat/CA on 10/31/10 2:20pm
Msg #359023

This is just my standard practice and part of what I review when I review the entire package upon signing completion. Numerous times I've caught missed things within those docs, especially with some of these large loan packages, including something on the notarial area.

I want to do it all at once, review, send and be done! If I follow the same procedure every time, the chance of error is reduced significantly, so as really not to even be an issue. If I don't, God only knows how my brain would work and for sure, would be all over the place.

Reply by bfd110_IN on 10/31/10 2:34pm
Msg #359026

I have always done it that way until..........

my closing last week.. Closing at the table and roaches were crawling on it and the borrower was trying to be sly and knock them off the table. Needlessly to say it was a sign here and sign here with quick explanation and I was out the door.. Checked bag to make sure it was clear and I notarized at home!!! Not much bothers me but.............

Reply by desktopfull on 10/31/10 3:15pm
Msg #359031

Re: I have always done it that way until..........

I would have asked the borrower to go elsewhere for the closing. No way I would have stayed in that!

Reply by Pat/CA on 10/31/10 5:52pm
Msg #359060

Re: I have always done it that way until..........

YIKES! Considering we just watched Hoarders last night, I can surely understand. I guess I should say there's times exceptions must be made, such as this, but I did figure out early on that, for myself, a consistent system and order works best for my brain.

Reply by Frank/NC on 10/31/10 6:21pm
Msg #359066

Re: I have always done it that way until..........

Know exactly what you are talking about. Recently I walked into one of those roach infestations and told the borrower to either meet me at the local fast food place or this loan isn't getting signed. They met me there, signed the docs and were the recipients of a free Bic pen. How do people live like that?

Reply by Jessica Ward on 10/31/10 4:08pm
Msg #359043

I saw this in a message from a company I do a lot of work for. I was rather shocked. I can't imagine NOT notarizing with the borrower there. I'd never do it any other way... with the possible exception of the roach house below. ;-)

On a few occasions I've cited 'extreme pet allergies' and moved closings to a nearby Starbucks (my treat) upon seeing the home in dangerous conditions, or noticing the fleas rolling across the carpet. Of course, then I proceed as usual, doing all of the notarizations with the borrowers right there.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/31/10 6:11pm
Msg #359062

Sal, I'm sure your intention with your post is to be helpful and inform. But, cynic that I am, I don't take a blanket statement at face value, especially from someone I don't know (and not often from people I do know) without knowing the source - and on matters of importance, without checking it out for myself. (For example, I have the Snopes and Truth or Fiction websites bookmarked and check them frequently before passing on any email that claims to inform me about something.)

Could you please elaborate on your statement? According to whom and are you talking about your state? Thanks.

BTW, this is already normal procedure for me, as well, but if I have a package that requires me to fill out 20 notary certs just for the title docs, and borrowers were told it would only take 20 minutes, I'm going to wrap up later!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/31/10 6:18pm
Msg #359063

Re: New Guidelines..Janet

I'm thinking he was referring to the notice some of us received from a title company...in part:

"Effective Monday, November 1, 2010, all GMAC loan document packages will include a closing agent certification which requires the closing agent to certify that all documents requiring notarization were acknowledged, sealed/stamped (if required by your State) by the notary at the time of signing in the presence of the borrowers at the closing table"

Guess GMAC is a little shell-shocked over what happened to them...

Even though it's standard procedure, and required, in FL, I guess some (or many) notaries don't do this and the company is now nipping it in the bud...guess GMAC is a little shell-shocked over what happened to them...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/31/10 6:18pm
Msg #359064

oops...apologies for the bad editing job.. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/31/10 6:20pm
Msg #359065

Here's the rest of the notice...

"We are required to provide the closing agent’s executed certification to GMAC prior to funding. You MUST return the executed certification with the original executed loan documents. Failure to do so will result in delayed funding and may potentially result in a delay in receiving your signing fee. Repeated non-compliance could result in you being deactivated as a signing agent."

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/31/10 6:55pm
Msg #359068

Re: Here's the rest of the notice...

Thanks for the clarification, Linda. That helps. I can understand why they're shell-shocked... I guess this is just another example where incompetence or lack of care on the part of a few create new mandates for everyone else.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 10/31/10 7:39pm
Msg #359076

Re: LSI...

This is from an email from LSI..I got it too and since this is my standard procedures I have no problem with this notice or certification!
The only opinion I have is why not have the bos sign this certification? That would be more sensible. If notaries are not doing this as standard practice then what is stopping them from falsifying the certificate?

If notaries are not notarizing at the table..then thats how they are able to do 12 signings a day! For me its just not possible!

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/31/10 7:41pm
Msg #359078

Re: LSI...

I DO

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/31/10 8:02pm
Msg #359089

Correction

What I was going to write before I accidentally hit enter, was that I DO NOT notarize at the table, unless time is of the essence and the deadline for shipping is near. Then I'll complete the certs at the table and ship the docs at the nearest shipper to the borrower.

I suppose this has come about because of subcontracting. I have never subcontracted a loan signing. A company that hires me gets me.

Only the CA SOS makes rules in regards to the *public office* - not any company. They can make any other rule they choose and if part of the original order, I will comply. But they are out of line and overstepping their boundary to touch the public office. I checked the CA handbook and found nothing in it that requires a CA notary to complete the certificates at the table. The only thing it says about completing the cert is that it must be completed when the Notary signs an stamps the cert. The handbook says nothing abut completing the cert in front of the customer.

Unless a new SOS law is enacted to require completing certs at the table, I will do or not do so at MY discretion. Companies need to deal with their issues (subcontracting or otherwise) in a way that does not touch the public office.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 11/1/10 12:24am
Msg #359103

Notarization at the time of signature is the law in OR. The

Act must occur at the time noted in our Journal for the entire transaction - that is, the time-frame of the onset of the appointment.

I tend to pre-fill the certs prior to the signing if I can - it saves so much time at the table. Sign and Stamp is expedient and legal, and works for me.

Plus, I can take my time because my hands shake sometimes if I have to hurry.

Everyone values their time, and I do my best to address that as a remote closer.

jmho.

Reply by Bear900/CA on 11/10/10 8:04pm
Msg #360672

Re: Correction

Interesting read. I am a CA mortgage broker first and will run after a signing when I have the time. Like LKT/CA, I abide by the CA SOS and try not to read more into it then necessary.

If it’s accuracy you are after, GMAC is now Ally Financial. What a screw-up company they are. They are one of the banks caught in the big MERS scandal doing 10,000 foreclosure signings per month without reading the paperwork. Are you really worried about them??

As for media attention, they could not have done it better themselves:
http://mandelman.ml-implode.com/2010/09/gmac-halts-evictions-related-to-foreclosures-in-23-states-when-news-of-forged-and-robo-signed-documents-comes-out/

Please note their set of directions following Mandleman’s article. They are covering their @ss. He tortures them good for it.

I have had to sign standing in a hospital between surgeries, many a time during half-hour lunch breaks, while my customer is waiting on their customer at their place of work, on and on. I can count with three fingers the times I have stamped in the presence of a customer. My signings never come back.

If your state requires it then you should do it. I have turned down SAs who carve in their own little pet peeve requirements all the while wanting to pay less. I have stood up to agencies that wanted me to sign in a way that fits their out-of-state client while putting me at risk. Stick by your state’s law and use good judgment outside of that. If you want something to worry about, try being a mortgage broker, RESPA, TILA, NMLS, HVCC, SAFE Act, Feds Final rule, new fixed LO compensation, etc., etc.

Trust me you don’t have any problems…

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/1/10 5:41am
Msg #359117

'unintended consequence' to consider

We are all probably pretty aware of the power of the media - and anything to do with banking, lending and the hint of impropriety with related notarization is ripe fuel for the fire. It isn't (IMO) bad or negative that banking & lending want to be as FAR away from anything even remotely looking improper. The question of whether something actually is or isn't in step with the absolute letter of the law is secondary to what the public's PERCEPTION is and how the media will present it. In case that's easily misread, what I mean is - yes, they want to adhere to the law, AND ADDITIONALLY they want to be above reproach in appearance, as well.

It's also pretty common knowledge that the general public has almost zero understanding of notarial laws & guidelines. He77, a lot of people who SHOULD have clear understanding, don't.

From the banking/lending industry - perhaps the best policy for the issues they face is exactly what they're instituting as POLICY for those they contract with (notarize at the table). For the record, I wouldn't volunteer myself to test contract law by opposing a written policy I've contracted to adhere to ...but that's not the point I'm going for.

The potential for that unintended consequence is this - what do you imagine the media could make out of a headline like this: "Notaries Not Notarizing Loans in Front of Borrowers!" In today's viral news environment, all it would take is ONE sensationalized story to blow our world & our industry across the world in about 3 hours. Maybe less.

What can you imagine as a consequence to that? Does it matter much that OFTEN 'news' is blasted on the front pages that is entirely sensationalize, blatantly inaccurate, usually skewed towards one agenda or another? We could so easily be made into the next media focus - wouldn't surprise me in the least, just one good headline is all it would take (I don't even thing the story would matter as much, let alone facts).

We're not being asked to do something less than legal, but (in some states) MORE than legal, and farther away from public perceptions of impropriety. We're being asked in WRITING, as a policy, for which we are going to contract under. Should a notary buck against that, and should it ever land in a headline - we're toast, all of us. It would be quite simple for banking/lending to completely do away with us, and go BACK to conducting their business in brick/mortar settlement offices. We are fluff, we are NOT necessary - we are a nice bit of convenience, but easily kicked to the curb without so much as a hesitation in the earth's revolution speed.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/1/10 5:45am
Msg #359118

Adding one more thing ...

There's a lot of serious money out there that would LOVE to see this happen, also. Bar Associations across the nation, for one. Settlement/Escrow agents wouldn't so much mind - particularly now in a collapsed economy.

Reply by PAW on 11/1/10 7:01am
Msg #359121

Totally agree. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 11/1/10 8:42am
Msg #359127

Thanks, Renee. Great perspective. It is the "media" thing

that the NNA operates under, as we know.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/1/10 6:41pm
Msg #359255

Re: 'unintended consequence' to consider

<<< It would be quite simple for banking/lending to completely do away with us, and go BACK to conducting their business in brick/mortar settlement offices. We are fluff, we are NOT necessary - we are a nice bit of convenience, but easily kicked to the curb without so much as a hesitation in the earth's revolution speed.>>>

I disagree Renee....it will NEVER happen.....NEVER, EVER. We are in a face paced, mobile, get-out-of-my-way-or I'll-run-you-over age where Mr. & Mrs. Borrower both work, and if they can't (or won't) come to you, you'd better be prepared to send someone to them or they'll dump you and do business with someone who will. While the mobile NSA began as a convenience, we are now a necessity, not fluff and certainly not kicked to the curb.

Banking/lending will do away with the mobile NSA when businesses eliminate the drive-thru.

Reply by Barb25 on 11/1/10 11:44am
Msg #359179

Help me out please

Where exacly in Florida Notary Law does it state that the notarial certificate cannot be filled in prior to meeting with the signer in the case of a loan signing. Thanks

Reply by jba/fl on 11/1/10 11:47am
Msg #359180

Re: Help me out please

It doesn't. Just don't sign/stamp until the time is right, which is in front of the signer.

Reply by Barb25 on 11/1/10 11:52am
Msg #359184

Re: Help me out please

Thanks. But can you direct me to where it says that. Just for my own FYI

Reply by PAW on 11/1/10 12:03pm
Msg #359187

Re: Help me out please

The handbook states the following on page 25:

The most basic requirement for performing a notarization is that the person who is taking an oath or making an acknowledgment (the one whose signature is being notarized) must be present at the time of the notarization. The presence requirement refers to physical presence.

Florida Statutes section 117.107(9) provides that: A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the person is not in the presence of the notary public at the time the signature is notarized. Any notary public who violates this paragraph is guilty of a civil infraction, punishable by penalty not exceeding $5,000, and that conduct constitutes malfeasance and misfeasance in the conduct of official duties. It is no defense to the civil infraction specified in this paragraph that the notary public acted without intent to defraud. A notary public who violates this paragraph with the intent to defraud is guilty of violating s. 117.105.

Violation of section 117.105 constitutes a third-degree felony for fraudulently taking an acknowledgment or making a false notary certificate.

There is no exception to the presence requirement!

In performing the notarial act, the completing of the certificate certifying that the act was completed, is an integral part of the notarial act itself. Therefore, the document signer(s) must be present when the act is completed, i.e. completing the notarial certificate. The only exceptions are when there is no signer, such as when an attested copy is made, verifying a VIN and inventorying a safe-deposit box.

Reply by Barb25 on 11/1/10 12:15pm
Msg #359191

Re: Help me out please

Well yes of course I have read that. The intent of which is that a person must appear in person before you in order for you to notarize the document. This is certainly a twist. Whether or not accurate I find it hard to believe that was what was in mind when written. I was hoping someone had something more definitive in this regard because I have never seen it.
I am by no means looking for an argument because it is an easy fix and I am a firm believe when in doubt play it safe.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/1/10 12:19pm
Msg #359192

Re: Help me out please

You have confused me twice here: what twist? What easy fix?

Reply by Barb25 on 11/1/10 12:33pm
Msg #359198

Re: Help me out please

Sorry to have confused you. Didn't mean to be cryptic. The easy fix is "just sign and stamp" at signing and it is no worry. The twist is that I am under the impression that the statute "Florida Statutes section 117.107(9) provides that: A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the person is not in the presence of the notary public at the time the signature is notarized" was intended to emphasize that the signer must appear before the notary. Although as I said it may also imply that the notary should sign and stamp (notarize) in front of the signer. I don't know. To me it is not clearly stated. Hence the easy fix....sign and stamp in front of the borrower.

Again I am not arguing here.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/1/10 12:44pm
Msg #359200

I'm not arguing either, was confused.

Sometimes when I come to confusing verbiage, I read it out loud and I find better meaning to the intent. I used to have the greatet trouble with Socrates until I began doing this.

I still have some problems with poetry thoughj - silent or out loud. So if you have some understanding of how to better grasp that, let me know. LOL

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/1/10 12:47pm
Msg #359201

Hey Julie!!!

"Sometimes when I come to confusing verbiage, I read it out loud and I find better meaning to the intent. I used to have the greatet trouble with Socrates until I began doing this"

If you can understand that....would you please explain the amendments on our ballots to me?? In English, por favor?....

Reply by jba/fl on 11/1/10 1:06pm
Msg #359206

Re: Hey Julie!!!

Sure - I'll call you tonight at 11pm when I get done with my other stuff and we'll go over them all - or DTF will. You should be ready be then?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/1/10 1:11pm
Msg #359207

Blah...nevermind that stuff...

I'll be in bed - working the polls tomorrow and have to be in by 6am - I'll be up by 3:30 or 4:00 - ugh

I read them out loud...did the best I could...ah well...

Reply by PAW on 11/1/10 2:17pm
Msg #359214

Re: Help me out please

To me, the statute is pretty clear: "A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the person is not in the presence of the notary public at the time the signature is notarized."

It says you cannot notarize the signature if the person is not in your presence at the time the signature is notarized. The final step in the notarization process is completing the certificate. If the certificate is not completed, then the notarization hasn't been accomplished. Just like there are numerous elements required for the certificate to be valid, there are also numerous elements for the notarization to be complete, including completing the notarial certificate, sign the certificate, and stamping the certificate with your seal.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/1/10 12:30pm
Msg #359197

Barb, I think I see the point you're making...

that you feel that paragraph refers to the *signer's* presence only...but read it again..in particular:

"A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the person is not in the presence of the notary public at the time the signature is notarized."

It doesn't say "....at the time of signing" - it says " at the time the signature is notarized" - the signer signs the document..we notarize the signature - and that's done when we sign the certificate and affix our seal ...so they must be in our presence "at the time the signature is notarized"..

Reply by Barb25 on 11/1/10 12:58pm
Msg #359203

Re: Barb, I think I see the point you're making...

Well I think our chosen profession here is just "Poetry." LOL. Anyhow I think our Florida notary law is so clear in some cases as is the Q&A they provide. But other things not so much. I remember contacting the office of the SOS about something a while back. Never got an answer. Go figure. Anyhow here's to making lots of money and staying out of the slammer. Regards, Barb