Posted by desktopfull on 10/21/10 9:23am
Msg #357556

Predating

Received docs on 19th for a purchase closing today. I was reviewing the docs and found that the notary for the Special Warranty Deed notarized it with todays date 10/21/2010, not possible since I was sent the docs 2 days ago from the law firm handling the closing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/21/10 9:25am
Msg #357557

Re: Predating..I'd forward it to the AG & SOS...

see if they want to jump on the fraudulent notary bandwagon...

Reply by PAW on 10/21/10 9:45am
Msg #357564

AG won't do anything, but ...

Do complete and file an official complaint if the notarization was performed by a Florida notary. You can get the form and instructions from my website.

Instructions: http://www.pawnotary.com/documents/Florida_notary_complaint_instructions.pdf
Form: http://www.pawnotary.com/documents/Florida_notary_complaint_form.pdf

Then mail it to:

Office of the Governor
Notary Section, LL06 Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001

Be sure to make a copy of the document with the incorrect notarization, so the Notary Section has all the information about the notary. Be as specific as possible when writing the complaint. Complaints that have few details, confusing information, lack of information or document in question is not included, typically will not be reviewed. If the complaint is reviewed, you will receive a letter explaining what is being done.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/21/10 10:16am
Msg #357573

Re: AG won't do anything, but ...

Thanks Paul.

Reply by Les_CO on 10/21/10 9:52am
Msg #357567

Apparently some law firms have discovered the ability to travel back and forth through time, and also teleport people from miles away into their offices briefly to sign documents. The AG in many States are looking into this phenomenon.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/21/10 10:13am
Msg #357572

Maybe my mind is not devious enough, but I can not

figure out an evil incentive to intentionally predate the notarization on this type of doc.
Innocent error??

Reply by James Dawson on 10/21/10 10:17am
Msg #357574

Re: Maybe my mind is not devious enough, but I can not

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully anyway.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/21/10 10:20am
Msg #357575

Agree, Bob ...someone just a little unclear of the concept

and as we know, that abounds (and in all fields). If I felt the need, I'd look the person up and give them a polite invitation to review the manual ...which would also raise the hair on the back of their neck, if they DID have a clue (the fact that they can so easily be busted).

But unless they're kicking baby ducks ...I just don't see the need to call The Big Dogs.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/21/10 10:34am
Msg #357584

Re: Agree, Bob ...someone just a little unclear of the concept

"But unless they're kicking baby ducks ...I just don't see the need to call The Big Dogs."

That type of thinking is why we currently have rampant fraud going on with the foreclosure process and why so many lawfirms are being investigated. It's also the reason we still have so many incompetent notaries. Oops it's a little mistake, I'll let it go they'll eventually learn. But it erodes the public trust, and we are answerable to the public.

Just curious, do you actually consider the transfer of property with a fraudulently notarized Special Warranty Deed no big deal and no reason to report the notary?

Reply by PAW on 10/21/10 12:21pm
Msg #357617

Re: Agree, Bob ...someone just a little unclear of the concept

I too agree with Bob_Chicago, but agree and fully support the reasoning desktopfull provided. It may be an innocent mistake, but it's not ours to judge. Even if it is an innocent mistake, doing so on different documents may have serious ramifications down the road, not to mention that it's just plain wrong. Notaries don't or won't learn to correct bad habits unless those habits are communicated to them. As practicing notaries, it isn't our place to police other notaries. That's what the Notary Section of the Governor's Office is for. There is a policy and procedure in place for general public as well as notaries and professionals to inform the Notary Section of errors. Chances are, the general public doesn't know if something is right or wrong, so they look to the notary to be absolutely correct and accurate in the performance of their duties.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/22/10 6:33am
Msg #357729

I disagree, think it's apples & oranges

A pre-dated deed just isn't the same as fraudulent affidavits sworn to by robo-signers.

This pre-dated deed could easily have been an absent-minded mistake (looking at the transaction date while dating the certificate), and therefore likely an isolated incident. Since there is absolutely nothing to gain by pre-dating this, it raises no red-flags for me as far as ill intent (unlike the foreclosure-gate issues). IMO, it's far more likely that this person isn't aware that the deed doesn't NEED to be signed the same day as closing, could be a new employee, could be an intimidation factor.

It's not hard to look up a notary; as I said earlier, a phone call letting them KNOW of this (in case it was just a bad case of absent-mindedness) and making them aware (just by calling) that IF it wasn't an error, if they continue to do this - there are others in the chain that will catch it and there are those pesky unintended consequences to deal with.

It's my own opinion that reporting fellow human beings to the highest authorities we can find for any/all possible mishaps - potentially jeapordizing their livelihoods - without serious consideration to whether or not there was ill intent or victimization of another party, and without at the least speaking to them first, is over-reacting & self-righteous.

Unless, of course, they're kicking baby ducks - then all bets are off.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/23/10 2:28am
Msg #357862

Re: I disagree, think it's apples & oranges

Renee, I think you make a valid point. If the intent is to prevent further errors from taking place, the courtesy of letting that person know what they're doing wrong could potentially prevent numerous future errors on notary certificates. Of course, there are a number of possible responses you could get from trying to do that.

One possibility is that they will get ticked off that you mentioned it and think you're a busy-body know-it-all, in which case you can report them with a clear conscience. Another possibility is that they really didn't know and will appreciate being educated. Problem solved. Naturally, there are multiple other potential reactions in between. (And this assumes that you have the time and can find their contact information.)

I think the state involved will probably make a difference, too. I'm not aware of any reporting procedure in place in CA. But if the situation arose, a call to the CA SOS office would probably answer that. However, with as short-staffed as that office no doubt is these days, I wouldn't count on any response coming from them, unless the error was particularly flagrant.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/23/10 7:21am
Msg #357867

No need to fret on pre-date of docs in my world.

Just put the notary certificate date in properly.

I don't see the problem...except with the baby ducks. That's a problem.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/23/10 7:23am
Msg #357868

Post-date either.

If I sign a document the 15th and the document goes into effect on the 30th, I have no problem with that.

Notaries just need to keep their cert dates accurate.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/26/10 7:47am
Msg #358245

Re: No need to fret on pre-date of docs in my world.

The notary certificate was predated. The notary is a paralegal that works for the lawyer that also predated and signed the deed. Sure, I'm going to call the lawfirm and inform a paralegal and a lawyer that they don't know they are breaking the law, LOL! I'd have better luck talking to a brick wall.

Actually, right now I'm just trying to CMA, the firm is under investigation by State Attorney and I don't want to get into trouble for not reporting if this gets discovered. I'm discussing this situation with my brother, who is a lawyer/judge in this state, and will take his recommendation on how to proceed. I'm not going to loose my commission and/or risk fines/jail because of this lawfirm's actions.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/21/10 10:24am
Msg #357579

Re: Maybe my mind is not devious enough, but I can not

I don't understand it, because no one expects the Special Warranty Deed to be dated the same day as the closing on these type of properties. The notary is a secretary in the firm and was probably just doing what she was instructed to do without thinking about the consequences of her actions. IMHO, no job is worth risking fines and/or jail.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/21/10 12:23pm
Msg #357619

Right? Wrong? Somewhere in between?

Fact is, reporting it seems to do nothing.

Reply by PAW on 10/21/10 12:31pm
Msg #357624

Reporting it correctly does work.

I know from experience, a complaint filed with the Governor's Office, if substantiated, will be dealt with by the Notary Section. There is a formal process in place, and it does work. Commissions have been revoked as well as prosecution for some serious offenders. I can tell you that the first time I received a letter in the mail from the Governor's Office, Notary Section, I was worried. Thankfully it was only a written response to a complaint that I had filed.