Posted by LKT/CA on 10/1/10 8:55pm
Msg #355098

Signing or Closing?? Signing....not Closing

In reference to msgs. 354952 and 355069.....I believe the correct use of terminology will help Notaries understand their role as a SA and know what forms they should or should not sign within the loan docs.
Msg 355069 spells it out very well - Notary Signing Agents facilitate the *signing* of the loan documents - we don't "close" anything. So in essense, you don't have a "closing"......you have a loan "signing". Notaries are not the Closing Agent.

So the next time a SS/TC contacts you regarding a "closing" you completed, and sign this or that paperwork......let them know you didn't "close" anything....you only facilitated getting the paperwork "signed". Let them know to contact the Closing Agent so THAT person can sign "this or that" paperwork. Use the correct terminology - you have a loan "signing", not a "closing".

Reply by desktopfull on 10/1/10 9:30pm
Msg #355102

Execellent discription of the two. n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/1/10 9:45pm
Msg #355103

When I make my confirmation calls, and leave a

VM , I usually say that I am "calling regarding the document signing for
tomorrow " or words to that effect.
In case someone besides the borrowers hears the message, I have not violated their
privacy.
When leaving a message with a secretay or some such, I usually say sosmething like that it is "regarding an appointment for tomorrowt'

Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/1/10 10:18pm
Msg #355105

Re: When I make my confirmation calls, and leave a

me too Bob. When leaving a msg I just usually say I am calling to confirm a "such and such" time appt. I never say "loan".

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/2/10 6:59am
Msg #355119

Re: Signing or Closing?? IMO, either

What we have here is primarily a 'war on semantics' and a good illustration of just how complex the world of real estate & mortgage loan settlement procedures are. With all due respect, much of what is presented in forums is opinion. Opinion isn't bad or wrong, rather - the more opinions presented, the more fully a person can appreciate various nuances of interpretation & form their own.

So much of what NSA's (a term coined by 'us') do is so subjective, and I believe our very nature drives us to find definitives; sometimes, there simply are none. Such is the case for the words "closing", "closer" & "close". If you search (case laws, Closing Instructions, CPL's, RESPA, etc) you will find these words used in many different contexts, sometimes interchanged with other words within the very same document. As I've repeated many times, the use of these terms is greatly influenced by location (colloquialisms) - for one example, in wet-funding states you will seldom hear the word "escrow" in reference to a "closing".

Rather than eschew a word/words that are common colloquialisms, it's my opinion we'd be wiser to better understand what is and is not defined w/in the context of the game we're playing in.

"Settlement Agent" is defined - and we're not it. The Settlement Agent is identified by name/location on the HUD; identified AND defined within the Closing Instructions & CPL, and consistently defined throughout the various laws & regulations that govern their actions.

"Closing Agent" is commonly used interchangeably with "Settlement Agent" - again, we are not 'it'.

"Closer" is a colloquialism; there exists no single, exclusive, contextual legal definition. Within the walls of the world we revolve around, WE are 'it'. This is why we hear the word all day long, particularly in speaking with Title Agents (who are not the same as Title Companies, even though we erroneously use "T/C" in reference to them in forums). This is their language, this is what word they use - it is a colloquialism. If you search, you will find reference to "Independent Closer" (referencing you-know-who) within case law & myriad other 'legal/official' sources. An NSA is not wrong to refer to themselves as an NSA, or a Signing Agent, OR an Independent Closer, or a Contract Closer, or a Closer.

"Closing" is both defined, and is a colloquialism - by legal definition it is a PROCESS which includes the services we perform; it also includes procedures that are performed both prior to and post-close. One isn't wrong in saying we perform "signings", and one isn't wrong in saying we perform closings, have a closing scheduled, have arrived to do the closing, did a closing the night before, etc.

That all said - these words always need to be taken in context, with common sense. If you are asked to sign anything that clearly implicates the Settlement Agent, or relates to duties beyond your scope - don't sign it. Unfortunately, we live in a world where a lot of people who draft documents shouldn't be, but they manage to work in lender & title agent offices.

Reply by redd on 10/2/10 9:16am
Msg #355134

Re: Signing or Closing?? IMO, either

Renee, thanks for this. I was trying to form a response to put here and just couldn't get it all together. Great job!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/2/10 7:58am
Msg #355126

"So the next time a SS/TC contacts you regarding a "closing" you completed, and sign this or that paperwork......let them know you didn't "close" anything....you only facilitated getting the paperwork "signed". Let them know to contact the Closing Agent so THAT person can sign "this or that" paperwork"

Though I agree we need to know our place in this process, I'm not about to get into a war of words with my hiring party - they know what they mean, I know what they mean - why quibble over "words" and end up coming off petty. It's very possible it IS a doc I need to sign so until I know exactly what doc they're talking about, I'm not referring them over to anyone.

JMO

Reply by NJW/FL on 10/2/10 9:13am
Msg #355133

I facilitate a lot of purchase "closings" at realty offices in my area (mostly reo/bank owned properties) and I am known as the "courtesy closer". It is understood just what I am there to do so I do not quibble over the title they use. Funds are wired to the title company and I fax the required docs so that as far as the buyer is concerned the "closing" is completed. Usually, the keys are not passed over until the next day when the actual printed and signed docs are rec'd at the title company due to that being the actual "closing".

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/2/10 8:27am
Msg #355127

Well said Renee and Linda. Call me what ever you like.

(Actually my favorite title is "Pay to the order of")
I will sign only those dox that I can properly sign.
When I speak to the actual borrower, I frequently say that I am going to be
the "closer" on their loan, as that is what their LO has usaully told them to expect. .
When I get a call from a TC/SS/Lender, they usually say something like. "We have a
closing tomorrow in Chicago, at 3PM, can you handle it?" Why argue with them?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/2/10 8:31am
Msg #355128

This was to Linda H,but Linda J is cool too. BTW, ever

notice how few kids today are being named, Linda, Lisa, Michael , Robert, etc,
Now they are all Madison, Ashley, Prescott, etc.?

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/2/10 12:47pm
Msg #355151

THE POINT IS....

Nowhere in my OP did I say anything about the terminology to use when confirming with the borrower or the terminology to use in dialogue with the hiring party......

The entire POINT of the post was if a Notary knows truly what their role is, there'd be no need to ask the question, "This form was in the loan package for the "Closer" and they want me to sign it, should I sign it? NO, you are not the Closer you are the loan "signer" so why would you?

There's no "war on semantics".....where'd that come from? Heehee !!! It's completely for the Notary's benefit (and the Notary's benefit ALONE) to use the correct terminology.....

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/2/10 1:26pm
Msg #355158

Came from right here Lisa...your own words

"So the next time a SS/TC contacts you regarding a "closing" you completed, and sign this or that paperwork......let them know you didn't "close" anything....you only facilitated getting the paperwork "signed". Let them know to contact the Closing Agent so THAT person can sign "this or that" paperwork"

This, IMO, is a petty war of words and boils down to nothing more than a Pi$$ing contest - an attempt to "teach THEM" what words to use..

IMO just do it and get the job done.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/2/10 7:37pm
Msg #355176

Re: Came from right here Lisa...your own words

<<<This, IMO, is a petty war of words and boils down to nothing more than a Pi$$ing contest - an attempt to "teach THEM" what words to use..>>>

Yes, my words, that you are attempting to make into something it is not (Pi$$ing contest ,*your* words). The whole point of my post was for the Notary (and the Notary ALONE) to know their role so there's no question as to whether they should sign something the TC asks them to. It was Mike/NY's post that actually defined the difference and spelled it out perfectly. Totally has nothing whatsoever to do with teaching "THEM" or anyone else on what terminology to use. It's for the Notary to know, period.

Linda, let's not manufacture a federal case where none exists. But the REAL pi$$ing contest is where you are trying to take my post in some other direction. After clarifying my post, you're intent on my words meaning something they don't - a contest for which you can engage in all by your lonesome. I've clarified my point, twice already.... so, now......moving on......!

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 10/2/10 8:56pm
Msg #355180

Re: Came from right here Lisa...your own words

I know several Tcs and other NSAs that call what we do as sign-ups..
That seems odd to me but whatever works is fine by me!

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 10/2/10 9:09pm
Msg #355183

Call me whatever you want -- JUST CALL ME AND THEN PAY ME and I'm a happy camper. Most lay people do no understand "signing agent", they do understand if you say you are coming to close their loan. And as Renee said, in table funding states, when we are finished with a regular purchase the loan is closed (that's why most of those are done in the T/C office). In fact, on REO closing you can always tell a RE Agent who is doing their first REO closing, because they will ask you if you have their check and you have to explain that it is an escrow closing and they will get it in a few days. They are acustomed to walking out with their RE fee in hand.