Posted by William Stockton on 10/28/10 8:01pm
Msg #358648

TC & SS pushing NNA requirement to acknowledge docs @ close

I am getting a ton of emails 'reminding' me to adhere to NNA requirements to acknowledge all docs at time of closing, that I might be violating state law is I don't. At law offices where I did work and sometimes close loans, we never notarize docs during close. I'm not a member of NNA nor do I wish to join. What gives?

Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/28/10 8:23pm
Msg #358651

"At law offices where I did work and sometimes close loans, we never notarize docs during close."

Hmmm Risky, Risky

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/29/10 5:37am
Msg #358700

what did you do there then with the closing papers?? n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/28/10 8:27pm
Msg #358652

"we never notarize docs during close"

Very dangerous practice for a mobile notary - while working "in the field", what if something happens to you between signing and home or signing and package drop (car accident, medical emergency, family crisis etc etc) And it can happen - we know.

We're required, in FL, to sign the cert and affix our seal in the presence of the signers and right then and there. If we don't (say we miss one?) and we've already left, we cannot just correct it - we have to go back out - no changes to our certs once we leave. I, for one, am thankful for that requirement. Signers, somewhere down the road, can't say "she didn't sign a thing" - they see me sign everything I need to sign.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/28/10 9:09pm
Msg #358659

Yes I'm getting these too. I always sign and stamp docs at the closing appointment, but I also like to facilitate this by pre-filling my notary certificates with all the info - this enables me to concentrate on the borrower signing docs correctly and all I have to do is sign and stamp my notary certificates. It makes the closing go much faster (for me). When I get late docs or last-minute docs, it makes for a longer closing appointment since I don't have time to pre-fill my certificates. It would also help if the notary cert's came pre-filled with venue, dates, and borrowers names.

Reply by Julie/MI on 10/28/10 9:17pm
Msg #358661

I'm with Copperhead on the digging the prefilled acknowledgements! Seems like the lender docs usually do, but the title docs do not.

Since we don't need a stamp or seal in michigan, I sign at the table so if something happens, the written part can be filled in by anyone. No "what if" commentary necessary for those inclined to do so

Reply by MW/VA on 10/28/10 9:39pm
Msg #358663

The NNA has absolutely no authority regarding notary law!!!!

They sure do like to come across as the "national authority", that's the image they have been able to create, but it is just that, an image. IMO, they are is a political lobby, similar to the NRA. It's a lot of smoke & mirrors, and I get more disgusted by their marketing tactics all the time. Notice it says, "you might be violating state law". More notary paranoia, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not even going to get into the debate of whether to stamp at the table or not. It's been discussed many times before.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/28/10 9:50pm
Msg #358668

Re: The NNA has absolutely no authority regarding notary law!!!!

Maybe we need to start discussing that organization over in "Just Politicis". LOL

Reply by jba/fl on 10/28/10 10:03pm
Msg #358672

Re: The NNA has absolutely no authority regarding notary law!!!!

No, this is work related. They are sticking their nose where is may not belong.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/28/10 10:26pm
Msg #358675

Talk about UPL!! LOL n/m

Reply by PAW on 10/29/10 9:10am
Msg #358719

What UPL?

I don't see where the 'directive' gives any legal advice or provide legal services for compensation. (From a Florida perspective, by definition of UPL by the Florida Bar and the Florida Supreme Court, the email does not cross the UPL boundary, imo.)

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/29/10 5:43am
Msg #358702

I agree with Marilyn on this one...the NNA is definitely NOT

any legal authority for notaries/nsa's to adhere to or abide by...not in the least!

And if certain TC's and SS want to empower them even more by bellowing to their every whim, then go ahead. But that certainly doesn't mean you or I have to do the same!

As long as we each respectively follow our state's notarial laws, we're good!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/10 5:44am
Msg #358703

Marilynn, I'm sure you know I'm no proponent of the NNA

so I hate to say this but with regard to this comment.. "Notice it says, "you might be violating state law". More notary paranoia, as far as I'm concerned."

They're right - this varies by state but in FL, a notary not notarizing at the table is violating their state notarial laws.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/29/10 1:58pm
Msg #358791

Linda, I was referring to their using "might". IMO, they

seem to make a lot of ambiguous statements that do sound like legal advice.
Like creating "certified & background checks". Many states, with the exception of CA, do not require background checks. "Certified" would only mean something if the state had a certification program. I was one who did all that, and feel I was deceived by them.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/10 2:10pm
Msg #358794

Yep...I did it too Marilynn...when I first got started

in FL...that's what got my business up and running..

Reply by trnsa_IL on 10/28/10 10:27pm
Msg #358676

As far I know the NNA has no authority to "require" anything

of you. Only your state government have that authority. I do, however, ALWAYS notarize the documents at the signing table, regardless. I do prefill the certificates whenever possible which saves time at the table. I close loans at many different places/offices and have never had anyone question why or complain about the notarizing at the table.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/28/10 10:55pm
Msg #358681

As others have said, the NNA is not your legal authority; your commissioning state office is.

Just because you do/don't do something in a law office or title company doesn't mean that it's the right way to do things. If your notary educational materials don't address this and you question whether or not you should by law, contact your commissioning office and ask them if it is a requirement.

Let's put it like this...except for the time factor and distractions it sure doesn't hurt to complete the notarizations at the table.

I am always amazed at those who say they have never dreamed of not notarizing at the table, or seem to think this is unheard of.

I have never been a participant (as buyer/seller/borrower) at the closing table that the notarizations took place while I was present. What do I do? Complete the notarizations at the table. Do as much of the ack/jurats as possible ahead of time; sign/seal at the table.

As a former legal assistant before doing notary signing work, I had your same experience in one law office. We did the closing, and then we took the documents to another table to complete in peace without so many distractions. In another, notarizations were completed at the table in front of the borrowers...even wills...and, that's a very distracting atmosphere with a lawyer, two witnesses and two testators, but it's a better practice, IMHO, even where laws do not address it.

I am not a member of the NNA.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/29/10 5:14am
Msg #358698

Agree, & completing AT the table actually saves time ...

I stack & prep notarizations for every single pkg, while the copy-pkg is printing. By 'prep' I mean I date, stamp my name below signature line, complete venue & stamp my notarial seal. Yep, I do. Until I sign it, it's not a completed notarization, it's a notarization in process. By doing this, I can spot some weird thing I need to address with Title, or notice missing items, etc. I catch A LOT of stuff by stacking before closing.

At the table, I hold the pkg and present ONE document at a time - when it's been signed, it returns to me, I check it, complete the notarization (if it needs) and flip upside down. I don't look at it again, and I seal the whole thing up when I'm finished right there on-the-spot, drop in nearest box (or hand the file over, whichever the case might be).

This is definitely more time-efficient than flipping through each page a 2nd time and then completing the notarizations.

I've had 4 missed items (date or signature) in roughly 3000 loans and 5 years. Just enough to keep me humble. It's when I DEVIATE in any way from my own rigid protocol that I'm far more likely to miss something. I must be ABLE to trust myself, and to do that I must adhere to an absolute set of protocols.

In fairness, I know that my years of doing post-close audits trained my brain in ways that I'm sure would be tough to otherwise learn. Nice tool to have, but way 'expensive' to acquire. =)

Reply by LCS_CA on 10/28/10 11:19pm
Msg #358686

The NNA is referring to their "best practices" guidelines which LSI has apparently embraced... As others have said, we are only required to act in accordance with the requirements of our state law.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 10/29/10 12:32am
Msg #358689

some states DO require it done at time of notarization- n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/29/10 6:21am
Msg #358706

LSI just sent out a notice that we as the signing agent (they refer to us at the closing agent) must sign a document that certifies that we have notarized at the time of signing in the presence of the borrowers at the closing table. This is for GMAC loans only, and it says that if we don't send back the certification then it could delay funding of the loan.

LSI is one company with notarizations required on almost every one of their MANY title docs (their POA & Correction Agr has both ack and jurat certificates) and for the most part they are not filled in with venue, date, or borrowers names. Their Closing Errors & Compliance Agr doesn't even have a venue anywhere on the doc, and the notary must notice this and write it in at the very crammed space right above the notarial certificate. I wonder how many are sent back without venue?

Reply by Accesstoledo on 10/29/10 8:47am
Msg #358716

Thiis is going to add several minutes to each appointment. Most of my Borrowers like the idea of me only being in their house 30/40 minutes. On busy EOM days it is going to cut down on the number of appointments that I will be able to complete, therefore, effecting my income.

Reply by PAW on 10/29/10 9:02am
Msg #358718

I don't think you will see any appreciable increase in the amount of time you spend at the borrowers nor loss of income. Multi-tasking is the way to manage it. After passing the document around for signatures, when it comes back to you, start the next document. While the borrowers are reading/signing it, do the notarization for the previously signed document. Also, prefilling the certificates, sans stamp and signature, makes it go a lot faster too.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/29/10 9:33am
Msg #358722

If I don't pre-fill my notary certs for LSI packages, my notarizations get totally backed up during the closing (since there are sooooo many). The borrowers sign more quickly than I can get my notary certs done. I agree with Accesstoledo that borrowers don't really want you there completing all your certs for 10 - 15 minutes after all docs are signed. And that's because they've scheduled their loan signing right at the same time they are doing other things or have other plans for. And of course their LO told them it would take only 30 minutes...

I only run in to this problem when docs are late. I still take the time to prep the package with my stacking order, but when docs come in late and the borrowers are waiting for me, I will go to the appointment without pre-filling my notary certs.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/29/10 9:51am
Msg #358727

I use to do both, notarize Docs after-the-fact, limiting time spend with busy borrowers and notarizing at the table. After awhile I was able to project how long it would take (depending on number of borrowers) so I was able to tell the borrowers in advance how long it would take. If they were in a hurry, the questions were nill.

For me this was the best approach because once I finished I go directly to the shipper. In short, one complete process, from contacting bwr, print Docs, sign and ship. I do not sign three bwrs then take all the packages at one time. That's what works for me. Requirements?

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 10/29/10 6:51pm
Msg #358855

James- CA does require you to notarize at the table. Not after the fact. It is not a time saving choice that the signers can choose.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/30/10 1:07pm
Msg #358962

No way

That's funny, Sheila, cos I can guarantee that there has never been and never will be and currently isn't a single loan - (OK, maybe just one under very unusual circumstances) - notarized at the signing table by a TC/escrow office notary in CA. Not now, not ever. At least in my neck of the woods - and from what I've read on NR in no neck of the woods in CA. Fact is, at one major TC in SoCal, the SOP is to have a notary ID the signers - then turn over the signing to an office asst. (who is not a notary) who will complete everything except for the notary signature (and whoe ven knows about that these days?). Before they ship docs to lender, they sign. They do dozens a day that way ... also this is the first I've ever heard that CA "requires" signing at the table?? I know FL does, but in all my years as a CA notary I've never read/heard such a thing. It could be an interpretation of code, however. Along the lines of notaries who require a tprint and sig for each notarized doc in a loan pkg as opposed to just one for all ....

Reply by trnsa_IL on 10/30/10 1:53pm
Msg #358965

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill...

With a little planning even at EOM with late docs there is no more time spent at the table to notarize.

While the borrower's package is printing I fill out the notary certificates all but the signature and stamp. I present a document to the borrowers that requires notarization and as they hand it back I present the next document. While they are signing that document I sign and stamp the notarization.

I present the next document, and, as they sign, I add the notarization to my Journal which I have completed with the ID info at the beginning of the appointment. For multiple notarizations in a row I still continue to present the next document, adding the docs to the journal as soon as I have finished the last one in a series. No extra time is spent where they borrowers must sit and stare at me while I notarize.

At the conclusion of the signing I show the borrower(s) the journal page and repeat to them the names of the documents I notarized. I then ask them to sign the journal as evidence I verified their ID and notarized the documents in their presence.

By the way, I thought the notaries in CA were required to get a journal entry/signature for the notarized documents. How can you do that if you notarize them later?