Posted by Carol Graff on 10/26/10 9:41pm
Msg #358376

notarizing for the blind in CA

Has anyone thad this experience?

Reply by John Tennant on 10/26/10 9:54pm
Msg #358379

Not really a problem. You must read each document verbatim, have two witnesses, and for my own protection, with proper advise to all present, record the signing. Why record, CYA. I am very cautious because I want all individuals to be protected. JMHO.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/27/10 3:34am
Msg #358391

Just curious... Where did you find this requirement? n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 9:04am
Msg #358414

Re: Just curious... Where did you find this requirement?

me also, I couldn't find it in the handbook.

Reply by Julie/MI on 10/27/10 6:14am
Msg #358393

What about the reverse?

Any handbook in any state spellout that a notary must be able to see? My bet is that CA would have addressed this.

Reply by PAW on 10/27/10 6:56am
Msg #358396

Re: What about the reverse? Notary being blind?

If that's what you're asking, how would a notary be able to ascertain that the ID presented is proper and that the document requiring notarization is complete and not blank? Even though the handbook or statutes may not specifically require a notary to be able to see, imo, it's obvious that given the requirements needed to perform a proper notarization, the notary must have a certain amount of visual acuity. Not only be able to see, but to also understand what it is they are seeing.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/27/10 7:38am
Msg #358398

F.S. 117.01(1)

"An applicant must be able to read, write, and understand the English language."

A blind person does not, in my opinion, have the physical ability to read the English language. They can read braille but can not read English words on a page. This would therefore disqualify them from applying to become a notary, at least in Florida.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 8:02am
Msg #358399

Re: What about the reverse?

Excuse me but in this computer age there are "Document readers" (programs). So I don't think a notary has to "read" the Docs personally.

As far as a "Blind Notary" all the Cal handbook addresses is the issue of being able to "certify". So what is that definition? According to the dictionary, there is no requirement for being able to see.

In the Ca handbook I found this in twenty most questions,....

Q. Am I required to see the person sign the document at the time I perform the
notarization?
A. No, not if you are preparing a certificate of acknowledgment. The document can be
executed before the person brings it to you for notarization. In an acknowledgment,
the signer must personally appear before you and acknowledge that the signer executed
the document, not that the signer executed the document in your presence. However,
when preparing a jurat, the person requesting the jurat must appear before you, take an
oath, and sign the document in your presence. In addition, for both an acknowledgment
and a jurat, the notary public must certify to the identity of the signer. (Civil Code
section 1189 and Government Code section 8202)

A Judge certifies, are there any blind judges? Governors?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/27/10 8:10am
Msg #358400

In FL, yes, notary must read the docs personally

F.S. 117.05(14)(a): A notary public may notarize the signature of a person who is blind after the notary public has read the entire instrument to that person.

I would imagine that most other states have a similar law. Electronic document readers? I've never seen one, although I'm sure they exist for some outrageous price.

Sorry, but, if you are notarizing a 15 page mortgage for a blind person, notaries in Florida must read all 15 pages to the person, word for word, before the notarization can be completed. No shortcuts. The statute is crystal clear.

Reply by PAW on 10/27/10 8:18am
Msg #358401

Re: What about the reverse?

And how is a blind person going to take the notary exam or perform the duties of the office?

Not being cynical or demeaning, but common sense also needs to be applied.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 8:44am
Msg #358406

Re: What about the reverse?

Blind person driving, no..taking exam, offering fingerprints, yes. You don't have to see the exam to take it.

Common sense is the least common of all the senses.....and I don't thing you were being cynical or demeaning, it was a valid question. I just see blind people "reading" books when I visit the book store with those "whatcha mycallits". LOL

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 8:51am
Msg #358407

It's called e-book reader $139 - $249 n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/27/10 8:52am
Msg #358408

James, be realistic

How can a blind person compare a picture on an ID to the face of a person appearing before them? How would a blind person have any idea who is appearing before them? How do they know what is on the page they are signing?

Get your head out.

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 8:55am
Msg #358409

name calling isn't necessary and I won't join you! n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/27/10 8:56am
Msg #358410

When did I call you a name? n/m

Reply by notary/OR on 10/27/10 12:48pm
Msg #358448

notarizing for the blind...not blind notary!

Sounded to me like she is referring to notarizing a document for a blind person...somewhere along the post line the information got turned around!

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 10/27/10 8:37pm
Msg #358520

...and heeeerrrrreeee's Robert same 'ole PITA! n/m

Reply by PAW on 10/27/10 8:56am
Msg #358412

Re: What about the reverse?

In practicality, how would a blind notary go about validly identifying the signer in accordance with Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) & (4)? A copy of the ID must contain a photograph and description of the person, so how would a blind person compare the ID to the signer without sight?

(IMO, this discussion is purely academic since in practice, I think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for a blind notary to successfully execute the duties of the office.)

Reply by James Dawson on 10/27/10 9:01am
Msg #358413

Re: What about the reverse?

You are correct PAW I was just answering a question. The key word for "how" it could be done is "assistant". Handicap people here (my son is handicap) have lot's of resources to them so that's how it can be done, with an assistant.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/27/10 11:39am
Msg #358429

Re: What about the reverse?

If a blind person were to have an assistant then the assistant is the one doing the identifying so how can the blind person say that they identified satisfactorily when it is the assistant who in fact did the deed. This is like the translator issue - one doesn't know what the translator is saying, if it is correct by comparison to the English word or phrase;

OK, I am blind, James, you are my assistant today and Paw wants something notarized.
Paw has spent the past 6 mos. watching tv, eating snacks and not exercising. He also has been doodeling and playing around with his signature, making little changes to reflect his new personality/personna. I ask Paw for his ID, whcih I can not see so I hand it to you. You see that there may be some resemblence to the photo, so you as him to sign your journal, and don't see same siggy as on his ID. You frown. You then ask Paw about all the changes - got anything else for me to look at? He says he will show you his old signature, signs journal to reflect change and to show same as ID. OK, now you see greater resemblance and decide to accept it.

What did I see? Are you reliable and 100% ready to stand in court and say you saw this for me? What if: you were mad at me that day and decided to "play around" with me? What did I see? Oh, your honor, I "felt" it was Paw - James said so?

Reply by jba/fl on 10/27/10 11:44am
Msg #358433

That was rough - try to imagine if

Brenda/TX wrote this in her polished style -

Apologies to Paw - you were just in the conversation with the fastest name to type; this was a factual fiction. No resemblance to any person, living or dead, was intended. In fact, the last time I saw Paw, he was jogging down the road in the body of a 22 yrs. old Chippendale type guy - the kind we ladies slam on the brakes for while whooo hoo-ing with great big smiles.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/28/10 9:43am
Msg #358579

Re: That was rough - try to imagine if

ROFL!!! Way to go!

In all seriousness, though, I think you nailed the hypothetical situation with the comparison to speaking the signer's language. Some things cannot be done through another party. As much as I'm all for equal opportunity, I think this is one area where a restriction would be appropriate. You can't farm out ID checking any more than you can use an interpreter.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/27/10 11:11am
Msg #358425

Methinks Julie's tongue was firmly planted in cheek. n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/27/10 9:52am
Msg #358418

Don't care to venture into the area of Political

incorrectness, but as a practical matter, I do not see how a NSA could charge enough
to notarize loan dox for a blind person.
IL Notary law provides in sec. 6--104 (e) that:
"(e) A notary public shall not take the acknowledgment of any person who is blind
until the notary has read the instrument to such person"
Imagine most states have similiar provisions.
To read a typical mortgage, (somtimes multiple copies with riders, would take hours
(assuming both parties could stay awake) plus detailed , notarized title dox and miscellaneous affidavits. .
The only reasonable solution , as I see it, would be for the blind signer to appoint a trusted
person as an AIF

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/27/10 3:06pm
Msg #358479

Re: Don't care to venture into the area of Political

I'm not aware of any mention at all in CA notary law about blind signers. I think it's a question of using the usual judgment required to make sure a person is aware of what they are signing and is doing so of their own free act and deed.

I've completed a loan signing where one person was legally blind without incident. In fact, I was there for a while before I even realized that she was legally blind. The only difference was that her husband put her hand in the right place to start her signature, but she took it from there. She holds a full time job and was sharp as a tack, even asking intelligent questions. She apparently had received copies of the documents in advance and had devices of some sort that she was able to use to "read" them.

I have an aunt who was recently declared legally blind as a result of wet Macular Degeneration. At the age of 88, she still lives alone (with a helper who comes in a few days a week) and gets along very well. (She still has a little bit of peripheral vision.) She uses a device that reads her email to her, an ultra-magnifying glass with a light, a bathroom scale that tells her her weight, a talking time clock, and too many other gadgets to mention. She's amazing!

Modern technology can make a huge difference to people who have access to it. This is not intended to diminish the challenges of the totally blind, BTW. Nor am I saying that I would never have concerns about this. Again, it takes a judgment call, based on the circumstances.