Posted by TulsaNotary on 9/10/10 1:07pm
Msg #352178

More name on docs than on the ID

I haven't had this problem for a long time, but just lately I had signings where the bwrs' IDs had 'less' name than the documents than the documents needing to be notarized. One time I got permission to change the docs to reflect the ID; other times have been a big headache.

I've even called our SOS's office (And they hate dealing with Signing Agents. You have to make it very clear to them that the only signatures that you are concerned with are the ones that have to be notarized; and that you only want to know what a Notary Public is supposed to do when the ID has less name than the doc to be notarized.). When I get back to SS or Title eveyone has a fit.

Is anyone else seeing a recurrence of this problem?

Reply by MW/VA on 9/10/10 1:33pm
Msg #352180

I'm not understanding the "less" name reference. Do you mean like Jr., Sr., etc.?
Otherwise, the ID/signature on docs issue is standard notary operating procedure. Our concern is only that the person signing the docs is the one who is supposed to be signing them, proven through identification, and that we are witnessing them signing. What am I missing here on all the other issues that get raised about it?

Reply by TulsaNotary on 9/10/10 2:00pm
Msg #352191

The ID has the first name, middle initial, and last name. Docs have to be signed with first name, middle name, and last name--in which case the signatures would *not* match--they'd be similar, yes, but not match.
Also a middle initial on an ID could stand for a myriad of middle names, and not the one on the docs.

Anyway, for awhile the docs either matched or had 'less' name than the ID. That made things simpler.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/10/10 2:14pm
Msg #352193

was address correct? Same middle "name"? n/m

Reply by TulsaNotary on 9/10/10 2:17pm
Msg #352194

Re: was address correct? Same middle "name"?

ID had no middle name--only an initial. Docs had full name, including a middle one.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/10/10 2:25pm
Msg #352195

Re: was address correct? Same middle "name"?

Sorry, I meant to say, What did the person say about "their" middle name? Did they have one? SS card, Credit card? gas bill? I probably would have asked them to show me something they had with that middle name on it.

Reply by TulsaNotary on 9/10/10 7:08pm
Msg #352233

Re: was address correct? Same middle "name"?

The terms of the loan were wrong so we didn't get any further than his DL--I was putting info in my journal while he read note, til, etc.

I appreciate all of the fine comments. I found a thread from last year that somehow I missed. One main line of thought--Bob's, I believe--regarding the 'less on id vs more in the doc's signature' issue was 'there were no states that had made that a law, but that it was only other signing agents and notary orgs and teachers who had made this 'law'.'

I have read some very 'balanced' comments, and I appreciate them all.

I read that thread, and others written about the same time, with great interest. While reading, I also waited for certain others to dispute Bob's thesis. They didn't. I wish I'd read that a year ago. (I try to keep up so don't know how I missed that.). It would have saved me lots of headaches.

Oklahoma is very vague, so I long for 'standards,' so in my zeal to abide by the 'law', may have mistakenly taken for law that which was only strong advice from those whom I knew to have so much more experience than me.

I mean to email my SOS Notary Services Dpt and ask them about the lines of reasoning that you all have presented. The pat email response I expect is "We cannot help you with legal question. Contact a lawyer."

If there are any other OK notaries on the board, I would really like to hear how you handle ID issues. You can PM me if you wish.

Thanks to all. I've got a lot to think about.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/10/10 1:39pm
Msg #352183

found this Okla "Notary Guide"

Oklahoma Statutes, Title 49 are the laws governing notaries public. It is your responsibility and duty as a notary public to know the laws and rules governing your activities in order to protect you and the people you serve.

Also this...................How does a notary public identify a signer?

A notary public identifies a signer by carefully examining the identification presented and comparing the signature the person has made on the document with the signature on the identification. The notary public may also rely on their personal knowledge of the individual. Proper “ID” should include a photograph and signature, such as a driver’s license or passport. It is also considered sufficient identification if, under oath, a credible witness personally known to the notary public identifies the person.

Reply by MW/VA on 9/10/10 1:45pm
Msg #352185

Re: found this Okla "Notary Guide"

It has been brought up before that with loan signings, usually conducted at the borrower's home, it would be a real stretch for someone to pose as the borrower, arrange to be there at that time & place, etc. to commit fraud. I'm not saying it can't happen--like someone posing as a spouse to sign in a separation or divorce situation, but IMO that would be the extreme exception.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/10/10 1:47pm
Msg #352186

Yes...it was the "Nanny" n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 9/10/10 1:51pm
Msg #352188

Maybe this would make a good episode for "Desperate

Housewives". LOL

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/10/10 1:54pm
Msg #352189

"And they hate dealing with Signing Agents."

Understandably so! Although you had no choice but to call them, of course.

Notaries, who are also signing agents, have a different way of looking at documents.

They are "matching" name to name.

My notary experience says that you identify the person to be who they say they are, not that you must match ID to loan documents. I'm in Texas, differnt state than you, so buyer beware and all that jazz.

If I go to notarize loan documents and someone presents me with ID that gives me cause to believe that they are not who they say they are, I am going to report it as a crime of fraud.

If there's a discrepancy in the Jr, being left off or on, or the middle vs. maiden name, or middle initial vs. middle name, I'm either going to notarize it, or report it as fraud.


====Texas====
The primary duty of a Notary Public is to show that a disinterested party (the Notary Public) has duly notified the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, >>>>and the *signer* of such document has declared that the signer’s identity, signature, and reasons for signing such instrument are genuine.<<<<<< The signature and seal of a Notary Public do not prove these facts conclusively, but provide prima facie proof of them, and allow persons in trade and commerce to rely upon the truth and veracity of the Notary Public as a third party who has no personal interest in the transaction.

A Notary Public is personally liable for negligence or fraud in the performance of the duties of the office. The bond is to insure that the person injured can recover at least $10,000.00, but this does not protect the Notary Public from personal liability for the full extent of damages caused by a breach of official duty. In addition to civil liability, Notaries Public may be subject to criminal prosecution and the revocation or suspension of their notary public commission by the Secretary of State's office.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 9/10/10 3:37pm
Msg #352202

Re: "And they hate dealing with Signing Agents."

I agree with Brenda.

Texas, of course, is noticably lenient in its notary laws and practices, which gives us the leeway to focus on performing the fundamental function of a notary public, rather than worry about whether we have met Section IV, Paragraph 8, sub-section iii(c)(2) of The Code of Arcane Notarial Statutes and Problematical Procedures. That fundamental purpose, naturally, is identifying the signer.

Once I have met the minimal state requirement (current government-issued picture ID signed by the signer), I see no issue with using supplemental documentation to reconcile an ID if the name is not a precise match to the document to be executed. I think Texas law permits that, and I'm glad that it does.

Reply by PAW on 9/10/10 2:29pm
Msg #352196

The OK Notary statutes state:

"A notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose true signature is on a document if that person is personally known to the notarial officer, is identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the notarial officer or is identified on the basis of identification documents."

However, neither the statutes or Notary Handbook define what "identification documents" are. Some states list specific documents that can be used, but apparently, Oklahoma does not. So given the lack of clarity and direction, I can only assume the satisfactory evidence of what the persons name is or isn't, is left to the notary's discretion.

In this particular case, I would examine more than just their ID (driver's license) to show that this persons middle name is what the loan docs state. Look at things like a birth certificate, social security card, utility bills, etc. The preponderance of the evidence using these oft unacceptable forms of ID, may provide proper satisfaction of the name as described in the document.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/10/10 4:41pm
Msg #352211

Agree w/Brenda, Hugh & Paul - adding this ...

the term used in the statute is "on the basis of ..."

The definition of "basis" is:

1: the bottom of something considered as its foundation
2: the principal component of something
3a : something on which something else is established or based

Crucial word ...

Reply by parkerc/ME on 9/10/10 7:15pm
Msg #352234

Agree-use additional corroborative documents. n/m

Reply by OR on 9/10/10 10:02pm
Msg #352259

Re: I would also add to the AKA

I agree with PAW and Brenda. I would ask the borrower produce a document or ID that has the whole name on it. Also I would add the abbreviated name to the AKA form.

Reply by roxierox/TX on 9/11/10 6:04am
Msg #352288

Re: I would also add to the AKA

Using the AKA form that is typically part of the package should elimiate any confusion.