Posted by pat/WA on 9/7/10 11:28am
Msg #351748

Quit Claim Deed

Anyone heard of someone signing a Quit Claim deed granting the property to herself with a Power of Attorney for the Grantor

Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 9/7/10 11:34am
Msg #351749

she's signing as the grantee and also as poa for the grantor?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/7/10 11:36am
Msg #351750

This is a wild guess, and I could be wrong... but could it be that she is the power of attorney for an estate or trust and she's quit claiming the property from the estate/trust to her herself?

Reply by Stoli on 9/7/10 11:55am
Msg #351752

She is the attorney in fact n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/7/10 12:13pm
Msg #351755

Re: She is the attorney in fact

LOL!! That's what I meant... I do wish we could edit sometimes!

I meant to say, "could it be that she holds the power of attorney...."

Reply by pat/WA on 9/7/10 12:24pm
Msg #351756

Re: She is the attorney in fact

She holds the power of attorney and she wants to sign a quit claim deed as a grantor for her mother granting the deed to her mother and herself. no trust is involved

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 9/7/10 12:28pm
Msg #351757

I would say it's within her authority as AIF to do that n/m

Reply by PAW on 9/7/10 2:07pm
Msg #351770

Re: She is the attorney in fact

Let me see if I have this straight:

Grantor is the mother. We'll call her Mrs. Mom.

Mrs. Mom signed a POA granting her daughter (we'll call her Ms. Daughter) as her Attorney-In-Fact with certain powers.

Now Ms. Daughter alleges that Mrs. Mom wants to add Ms. Daughter to the title on some property.

Ms. Daughter presents a QCD with Mrs. Mom as grantor and Mrs. Mom and Ms. Daughter as grantee.

Ms. Daughter wants to sign the QCD as AIF for the grantor, naming herself and the grantor as grantee.

Technically, this may fly. But it certainly may cause some problems down the road placing a cloud on the title. May be perceived that Ms.Daughter wants to add herself to title, unbeknown to Mrs. Mom.

From a notary's point of view, should not be problem as notaries are not responsible for the content nor legality of the instrument and underlying transaction. IMO, knowing only the above, I would walk away from notarizing Ms. Daughter's signature as AIF for Mrs. Mom.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/7/10 3:06pm
Msg #351775

Re: She is the attorney in fact

I was thinking the same thing PAW. I did have something similar only the Grantor passed away sooner than expected making the POA null in void. Someone other than the POA Grantee inherited the property.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/7/10 4:32pm
Msg #351786

Re: She is the attorney in fact

The thing that protects us, as notaries... is that if the document was not legal before notarization, it isn't afterward, either.

Now, if the signer gives us information where we clearly learn it's illegal... then we should decline. But absent that? It's tricky. We better have a good reason for declining.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 9/7/10 5:12pm
Msg #351796

I disagree, Paul

The function of a POA is so that the holder can act in the stead of the grantor. It appears to me that is exactly what the holder of the POA is doing. The grantor had the power to restrict the POA when she granted it; she chose not to do so. That the recipient of the deed is also the party who is signing it as the holder of the POA doesn't seem to me to be a concern of the notary public.

AIF's often take actions on behalf of their principals that benefit the AIF directly. Absent direct evidence that there is coercion or mental incapacity on behalf of the principal, I think a notary would be overstepping his bounds if he questioned the transaction.

Reply by PAW on 9/7/10 7:51pm
Msg #351823

No disagreement ...

Note that I said "may":

>> But it certainly may cause some problems down the road placing a cloud on the title. May be perceived that Ms.Daughter wants to add herself to title, unbeknown to Mrs. Mom. <<

One attorney that I work with will not allow an AIF to award themselves anything (being the grantor/AIF and grantee) without lots of investigation and discussion with the principal/original grantor. Everything may be on the up and up, but then again, there may be deception in workings. Given the information that was provided, a recommendation one way or the other could not be provided without caveats.

We also agree that this is not a concern of the notary. Please read my last paragraph, in which I stated:

>> From a notary's point of view, should not be problem as notaries are not responsible for the content nor legality of the instrument and underlying transaction. <<

Reply by GA/Atty on 9/7/10 10:28pm
Msg #351837

I agree with both of you - notary should probably not be

worried about it, but as an attorney I would not advise anyone to do this.

If my client wanted to purchase this property 5 years down the road, and I saw a deed like this in the chain of title, I would not proceed without another quit claim deed directly from the mom.

And I think most real estate attorneys (and perhaps more importantly most title insurance company attorneys) would do the same.

Reply by Stoli on 9/7/10 12:39pm
Msg #351758

Boy, don't I know about wanting an edit button..... n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/7/10 12:48pm
Msg #351760

LOL!!! Yeah, you sure do! n/m

Reply by BobbiCT on 9/7/10 12:40pm
Msg #351759

QCD to self using POA - seen it done, BUT

I've seen this done many times. Issues with it will depend on your state, PoA text and possibly gift tax ramifications.

As a notary public, NOT MY CALL - just notarize.

From an attorney perspective (not me), maybe problematic. BUT attorney preparing may have analyzed all issues & OK'd same, or future attorney reviewing title may review PoA and deed then Ok'd same. Again, as a notary I just notarize.

Always an interesting issue when reviewing these; particularly when it's a DIY deed.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/7/10 3:14pm
Msg #351776

Re: QCD to self using POA - seen it done, BUT

Yes..problematic also IF it's being done to help Mom qualify for state assistance; not to mention IRS issues of gifts of equity and blah blah blah..

I'm with Paul - I'd walk away -

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/7/10 6:08pm
Msg #351811

Re: QCD to self using POA - seen it done, BUT

My initial gut reaction is in agreement with proceeding. Seems to me that there's at least as likely a chance that there are sane, acceptable reasons for this person's actions as the chance this was intended fraud. I have no way of knowing. But if the person presents me with proper ID, the content of the document is not my concern. I don't think I'd have enough information to make a judgment, so barring any evidence to suspect something was improper, I would have no legal basis to refuse, imo.

Reply by Cari on 9/7/10 5:20pm
Msg #351799

I just notarized a QCD for a man (whose Aunt made him executor of her Will) and he was adding his mother to the title. He needed to also have a POA (financial and healthcare) signed by his elderly mother due to her age and health. Paperwork drawn up by an attorney, and even it they weren't, none of my business. I'm not there to question his intentions, only there to verify their identities, and notarize the sigs on the docs....plain and simple.

Why should this notary walk away from a paying notary job when all she is required to do is to notarize sigs? Seriously, what's the problem here? I don't understand why issues like this have to be overcomplicated in discussion here??

Reply by kathy/ca on 9/7/10 7:25pm
Msg #351821

I dont get it either, it is not our job to question the

legality of a document, how does the saying go, "dont over analyze, just notarize". There are alot of "overthinkers" that post on this board and many times, myself included.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/8/10 12:35am
Msg #351849

Re: I dont get it either, it is not our job to question the

Inquiring minds want to know. Sometimes, it's a curious question.....a "how come?"

I'm like that too, just want to know for the sake of knowing........nothing more than just for my own enlightenment and enrichment.

Reply by Cari on 9/8/10 7:27am
Msg #351852

Re: I dont get it either, it is not our job to question the

I can see that LKT/CA...

Reply by PAW on 9/8/10 8:22am
Msg #351859

Re: I dont get it either, it is not our job to question the

There are a lot of us that do much, much more than just being a notary and/or signing agent. If everything was limited to "just notarize", then everything would be mechanical and unassuming. In my experience, most notaries that I know and work with know the limits of their role and duties, but also yearn for the knowledge of the big picture. Knowing the ins and outs of the process, expectations and often results, allows the notary to be better at their job than those who merely stamp, seal and sign.