Posted by NJDiva on 9/30/10 6:06pm
Msg #354898

Request for an acknowledment

I tried to search the boards and can't seem to find the exact answer as I understand it or need it to apply to my situation...

I did a POA closing (ugh) for a 200 page doc pkg on the 28th (today is the 30th.) The husband is in the military and not available so the wife signed as POA.

On the DOT I included the husbands name by wife as attorney-in-fact, along with the wife's name when I notarized the original acknowledgment. My brain went mush...don't ask.

I just had the SS call and request an acknowledgment for the DOT. That's understandable. Duh. No problem. I back my work and did it at my expense.

My ISSUE is that when I sent the acknowledgment correcting the DOT Ack to only reflect the WIFE'Ss name, they called me and said that the amended Ack should be dated the 28th, not (today) the 30th. They instructed me to date the acknowledgment with the date of the closing, the 28th. In other words:

Venue

On *date* before me, ________ personally appeared _____________. who proved to me on the basis of satisfactory...



On the bottom of course is the optional "Description of Attached Document" which, I of course filled in.

Type of Document: Deed of Trust
Date of Doc: September 28, 2010
etc. etc.


At the sake of looking like a total moron can someone please verify for me what *date* should have been in the amended (additional, corrected) acknowledgment (certificate)? Should it be the 28th or the 30th. If I put the 28th, isn't that back dating.

I've done confused the hell out of myself. And I've been doing this a long time. Just don't do too many POA's.

Reply by PAW on 9/30/10 6:10pm
Msg #354900

Don't know what the rules are in NJ, but here in FL, a notarial certificate cannot be modified once it is returned to the custodian. So a new acknowledgment would be required, with the presence of the signer to re-acknowledge her signature. The date would be the date the new acknowledgment is completed.

Reply by James Dawson on 9/30/10 6:22pm
Msg #354901

Marian? can't find any reference to this situation for CA? I know you're still recovering but after your therapy (just joking) maybe you can provide some insight in the spirit of " everyone doesn't have the knack for researching" like you do, thanks in advance.

Reply by Calnotary on 9/30/10 6:24pm
Msg #354902

New signature in the doc, new stamp and of course TODAY n/m

Reply by Calnotary on 9/30/10 6:26pm
Msg #354903

Re: New signature in the doc, new stamp and of course TODAY

clicked enter too fast.

Of course you will need to date for today's or when ever the borrower is in front of you signing.

Reply by Stoli on 9/30/10 6:40pm
Msg #354905

Posted in the wrong place, James.

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2010.pdf

See Page 11. The notary acknowledgment must be dated the date and time the signer appears .. blah, blah.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/10 7:34pm
Msg #354913

I would never, ever send a "corrected" acknowledgment like that... if they need a new one, it's an entirely new notarization on the date that it actually happens, which means another personal appearance and journal entry.

I can't speak for NJ.... but in California, the date on the acknowledgment itself doesn't mean a darn thing. All that means is that it's the date the person acknowledged having signed it. It's very possible the the person signed it 2 days earlier... no big deal.

Now, jurats are different since those are done on the same time as the signature. But acknowledgments? The date doesn't matter.

Reply by PAW on 9/30/10 7:55pm
Msg #354918

Date ?

<<< ... in California, the date on the acknowledgment itself doesn't mean a darn thing. All that means is that it's the date the person acknowledged having signed it. It's very possible the the person signed it 2 days earlier... no big deal. >>>

The date in the acknowledgment means everything! As you stated, it is the date the signer appeared and acknowledged they executed the document and that the signature is theirs. (And a few other things like identity and willingness.) The date of the acknowledgment doesn't have to correspond with the date they executed the document. Is that what you meant by saying the date "doesn't mean a darn thing"?

Reply by Maureen_nh on 9/30/10 9:30pm
Msg #354922

Re: Signed it in 3rd grade, can acknowlege now N/M n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/10 10:50pm
Msg #354929

Yes, Paul... that's what I meant.

Reply by rengel/CA on 10/1/10 1:08pm
Msg #355025

Please be more consice with your wording

The date the signer signs the acknowledgment doesn't matter, B U T ... the date you notarize and sign the acknowledgment DOES.

It is too easy for newbies to misinterpret this when it is not clearly stated.

My .02

Reply by jba/fl on 9/30/10 7:33pm
Msg #354912

"Just don't do too many POA's."

This has nothing to do with whether it is a POA or just a regular garden variety acknowledgement. I do not know NJ notary law - I don't know if you can 'amend' an ack. If you cannot, then if you did this today, it would have today's date or be called backdating.

You will have to be certain of NJ notary law before you proceed. Check your manual.

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 9/30/10 8:00pm
Msg #354919

Can you call, or better yet, email the SOS for instructions on how to proceed?

Reply by kathy/ca on 9/30/10 9:36pm
Msg #354923

I find the following confusing, not sure exactly what you

did wrong: "On the DOT I included the husbands name by wife as attorney-in-fact, along with the wife's name when I notarized the original acknowledgment. My brain went mush...don't ask".

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 9/30/10 10:55pm
Msg #354930

Re: I find the following confusing, not sure exactly what you

only the wife appeared, so only her name goes on the certificate. What she did wrong was put the husbands name on the her notary cert...when he wasn't there.

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/1/10 12:38am
Msg #354942

Oh I missed the part about her putting the husbands name in

the notary cert!

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/1/10 10:58am
Msg #354995

Couldnt she use the original cert by crossing out husbands

name & initialing the change?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/1/10 12:37pm
Msg #355014

I'd started to reply to this earlier but decided it was

straying off-topic so I deleted it...but now I'll reply...

Husband's name was in there as "Jane Doe as AIF for husband...not listed as husband solely -at least that's how I read the original post.

It's possible, in NJ, she's allowed to acknowledge "Jane Doe, individually, and Jane Doe as Attorney-in-Fact for John Doe"....some states (ie. CA) can't do this - here in FL we can - however this OP is in NJ ... the NJ manual is vague as to whether or not she can have capacity in her acks. In light of title's request for an amended ack and the limited information in the notary public manual, I'd call the SOS and ASK THEM if NJ Notaries can or cannot acknowledge Jane Doe as Attorney-in-Fact for John Doe (would be good to know for future reference anyway).

Now, that being said....the new ack will bear the new date - not the old date - yes, using the old date is backdating. (Here in FL we'd have to obtain the original document <or print a new one> go back out and have it re-signed and acknowledged).

JMO and good luck.

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/1/10 12:46pm
Msg #355017

I understand that but why cant she cross out is name and

initial the change?????Would that not be acceptable in NJ?

Reply by OR on 9/30/10 11:02pm
Msg #354934

Re: Me too

I am not sure what she did wrong. I would ask for a copy of the ACK sent to me with a explanation of what was wrong with the DOT ACK. I had some one ask me for a loose ack just the other day because the caller said it was missing my notary expiation date. I ask for a copy of the ACK. She then told me sorry they were looking at the wrong account and none was needed. I would not do anything until I was the form in question. I think that is just Notary 101.

Reply by Stoli on 10/1/10 1:45am
Msg #354946

PAW - Marian Here's an excerpt from the New Jersey Handbook

• Make a journal entry. The journal entry provides evidence and an audit trail thereby protecting both the Notary and the general public. Required information includes: 1) date and time of notary act, 2) type of act (i.e., acknowledgment), 3) title of document,

4) date document was signed,

5) signature; printed name and address of each signer, and if applicable, each witness, and 6) form of ID -- e.g. identification document, personal knowledge, or credible witness. Note: Journals should be bound to prevent tampering. Journals may be obtained from stationers or professional associations.

Clearly, the date on the acknowledgment must match the date the acknowledgment is executed by the notary.

How then do you address requirement number 4) the date the document was signed?

It isn't possible to enter the date the document was signed into the journal if the document was signed while in the third grade, is it?

and as pointed out from the above excerpt, the date the document was signed is noted in the journal, not on the acknowledgment? No mirror language appears on the acknowledgment but is a requirement for the journal entry? That would indicate to me that the document must be signed at the time the acknowledgment is taken by the notary, but in California, that isn't the requirement. The document may be signed at any time prior.

Yes, the acknowledgment date should be the date the signer appeared in front of the notary and signed the journal. If this is a curative signing, the notary must secure a new signature and thumbprint in the journal, and the notary acknowledgment is dated the date the signer appeared before the notary. Two separate days, two separate journal entries.

Yes, I agree with Marian, as always. The date on page 1 of the Deed of Trust doesn't matter, but the date on the acknowledgment, the date the notary signs and stamps the acknowledgment, certainly matters.

I'm still struggling with number (4) the date the document was signed.

I know what I would do, but ...

California acknowledgment contains the following language, "......acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same in his/her/their authorized capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their/ signature(s) on the instrument the person(s) or entity upon behalf of which the person(s) acted, executed the instrument". Clearly the document need not be signed in the presence of the notary.

PAW, Marian -- help out here!

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/1/10 5:45am
Msg #354950

Re: PAW - Marian Here's an excerpt from the New Jersey Handbook

No... She may have signed the document on July 12, 1982, and she can still acknowledge her signature today. The date the document was signed can still be recorded in the journal without it being the same date as the notarization.