Posted by JanetK_CA on 4/3/11 7:48pm
Msg #378437

How does this happen?!!

Earlier today I had an aborted general notary appointment that was supposed to be for a POA and a Grant Deed. I looked at the GD first and the grantee space was incomplete, just a couple of blank lines. (I did tell the person in advance that the documents needed to be complete.)

This was for a couple who were selling their home to a relocation company who prepared the documents. They were able to reach someone on the phone from that company and were told that that's how they do it, and that it will be filled in later. Are you kidding me????? And of course, I then get all the patronizing comments about them not understanding how they've done thousands of these and it's never been a problem before, etc., even after I tried to show where it stated in my Notary Handbook where we must not notarize an incomplete document. They didn't want to hear it.

The relocation co. had fairly extensive directions for each form, but something as basic as this, they leave out! And no one ever caught it before?? The couple didn't seem at all concerned about signing their house over to an unnamed third party. Apparently they're going to go to escrow to have it taken care of (because I wasn't notarizing it that way). I think we all know what will happen there...

I can understand the couple not knowing any better but why in the world would a company set up a procedure with something as important as a GD - a recordable document that will change the ownership of someone's home - being left incomplete until after the fact. And what I really find appalling is that they've apparently been getting away with doing it this way for a very long time.

OK. I feel better now...

Reply by Jack/AL on 4/3/11 9:03pm
Msg #378440

Well, odds botkins! I had my first similar event during the past few days. Docs were two Quit Claim Deeds, one to be signed by a man and his wife, and one by the man and his son. I asked that the blanks be completed and the corrected docs issued to me. Some blanks were for names, tax parcel numbers, fair market value, and identification of the previously recorded documents which these QCDs pertained. Here's the reply I got from a BIG TC for which I do a lot of signings, normally without problems. "As for the info that needs filled in, we will complete this when the deed is returned. We will make sure all of the appropriate info is filled in before we send this for recording." My response was "Thanks, but I’ll not be notarizing pages with a bunch of blanks, for that is not within the boundaries of proper notarizing procedures and legalities. If the blanks are there, I’d have to line through them, and then someone might require they be done again. Please find someone else for this assignment." The quick and final response from the TC was simple, "Will do, thanks."

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/3/11 9:20pm
Msg #378443

Holy moley, Janet. Having just gone through a foofah with

some old(!) QCDs (that had several lawyers in several states drawing up/recording docs,) after putting them side by side for Dad (went through the roof,) and which, are getting squared away now -- if people who even hire reputable lawyers can get slipshod work - HOW can people ~do~ this stuff with strangers and blank spaces?

I want a neon sign to blink over my head like an Arby's Hat: "NOOOoooo - WALK AWAY!" (Of course, those who know me know I'd rather it say: "No! Don't pet *that* dog!")

Reply by Joan_OH on 4/3/11 9:33pm
Msg #378445

Happened to my daughter's deed

She bought a house from a relo company. When I viewed the deed, the original owners signed the deed some months before and my daughters name was typed in.

I do not agree with this procedure as it was a non-disclosure purchase contract since the relo company never lived in the house. However, since the relo company never actually took title, I think there should have been disclosure (like the non-working whirlpool tub and previously leaking roof).

I think the big reason the relo company never actually takes title is so they don't have to pay conveyance or recording fees, which can be substantial.

Joan-OH

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/3/11 10:42pm
Msg #378455

This is one reason Elizabeth Warren got us Consumer

Protections - to try to get rid of this "relo non-ownership" *transfer* or whatever they're calling it now.

Paper trails are failing in the courts because homeowners are rightly demanding Paper By The Rules. The dockets for judges in foreclosure cases is insane to where judges admit they can't even read the hundreds of pleadings a day - makes me think of "justice mills."

Homeowners on Oregon are organizing, and doing good things for lots of Oregonians - they're conducting workshops state-wide for distressed homeowners and succeeding in setting state court precedence. I've got links if you're interested; just PM me.

I liked your statement, "I think the big reason the relo company never actually takes title is so they don't have to pay conveyance or recording fees, which can be substantial." I'll add to that: or have to sign-off again. ("Disclosures? What disclosures heh heh heh, ah-hem; hm? Wasn't my job...")

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/3/11 9:49pm
Msg #378448

Janet, I think it happens all the time.

That's what I call a notary using a seal like a rubber stamp.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/3/11 10:48pm
Msg #378457

I'm glad for the shedding of light and the prosecutions, and

hope they continue up to the Top Dogs.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 4/3/11 11:26pm
Msg #378460

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago

From your description of the documents and instructions it sounds like it might be the same company. I also refused to notarize unless the blanks were filled in.

I agree with Joan regarding the recording and conveyance costs. They do not want the expense of actually titling the property to the relo company.

Some savvy lawyers out there might notice and question the deeds on properties where the owners signatures were signed and notarized prior to the offer date on the purchase contracts.

Reply by NS35/CA on 4/4/11 12:03am
Msg #378461

This has happened when we are signing with RELOCATION PACKAGE. That's just the beginning of ( part of) the documents signing procedures. I believe, the property may not has been, even listed, yet; they do not have the name(s) of the buyer(s) to type in.

When you PRACTICE more, you may understand that what we have learned BY THE BOOK is not enough to deal with the real world of notarliization.

Reply by HisHughness on 4/4/11 12:18am
Msg #378463

***When you PRACTICE more, you may understand that what we have learned BY THE BOOK is not enough to deal with the real world of notarliization.***

And when you practice <enough>. you may learn the meaning of ethics and compliance with the law.

Although, based on your post, I don't have a great deal of confidence you will ever understand either.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/4/11 1:34am
Msg #378466

"And when you practice <enough>. you may learn the meaning of ethics and compliance with the law."

Well said, Sir Hugh!!

And I think THE BOOK was written with situations like this in mind. I can't think of anything that is a more flagrant invitation to fraud than leaving blank the name of a Grantee for title of a property! They might as well write a blank check on their checking account.

Reply by NS35/CA on 4/4/11 2:09am
Msg #378467

Too soon to jump into the conclusion! I'm glad that I don't need your 'confidence' to get an assignment. And I am also glad that I am in CA.

Talk is cheap here. I think the best PRACTICE in this RELOCATION docs signjing is to call directly to the RELOCATION COMPANY'S ATTORNEY and ask him or her why would this be allowed? Did s/he understand the laws? Did s/he pass the bar? Didn't s/he understand "the meaning of ethics and compliance with the law"!

Would you like to call s/he attorney and get it post!

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/4/11 7:28am
Msg #378472

NS35/CA, when you PRACTICE enough you will

learn that it is unlikely that an attorney drafted a deed that is meant to be left blank. The RELOCATION company is very, very likely doing their own legal work. Or, they've found a loser lawyer to handle the documents.

When you're around for awhile, you'll figure it out...maybe.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/4/11 7:40am
Msg #378474

And the longer you PRACTICE you may learn

that above all else, your notary laws rule the day - what the relocation company or their attorney wants is secondary to following notary laws TO A *T*.....

As for notarization of incomplete documents, this from your own handbook, 2010 version, Page 16...

"Notarization of Incomplete Documents
A notary public may not notarize a document that is incomplete. If presented with a document
for notarization, which the notary public knows from his or her experience to be incomplete or
is without doubt on its face incomplete, the notary public must refuse to notarize the document. (Government Code section 8205)"

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2010.pdf

Reply by Teresa/FL on 4/4/11 8:24am
Msg #378477

Re: And the longer you PRACTICE you may learn

When this situation happened to me a couple of years ago, I spoke to the relocation company's attorney on the phone and to the escrow officer at the title company.

I quoted the same information from the Florida handbook and even had the attorney look it up for himself online. I could hear in his voice that he knew he was fighting a losing battle, but he still insisted that this was a "deed in blank" situation and it was acceptable to notarize the sellers' signatures on the document.

At the beginning of the conversation with the escrow officer she asked if I knew if this seller's transaction was a "one or two deed" package. She tried to convince me that they do this all the time, even in Florida. I told her that I did not doubt that some notaries might have notarized incomplete documents but I would not do so.

I am sure they use this method to avoid the costs involved in the transfer of ownership. The fact that they have "one and two deed" packages indicates to me that some sellers may recognize that the "one deed" with a blank grantee is not the correct method to use.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/4/11 12:45am
Msg #378464

"notarliization," whatever that is in your world. Sounds

like a cross between 'notary and sterilization.' Notarial Office sterizlized of Ethics?

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/4/11 3:00pm
Msg #378534

I can tell you why relo co's do that.....

a lot of states have a transfer fee [tax] when real estate is transferred.......in wi that amount is $3 per hundred....thus a $200,000 home would be $600.....therefore the fee would have to be paid twice....from the transferee to the relo co and from the relo co to the ultimate purchaser.....so they like to leave it blank and pass it on from the transferee directly to the ultimate purchaser and save 1 fee.....they also think that it takes them out of the loop in case the ultimate purchaser sues for some serious problem with the home or some non disclosure......i also refuse to notarize them even if it is a home our co would be selling either direct with the seller or with the relo co.......cartus is one of thehardest relo co's to work with......

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/4/11 3:03pm
Msg #378535

WHOOPS......should say $3 per thousand....sorry.... n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/4/11 3:14pm
Msg #378541

Yep, it was Cartus.