Posted by PAW on 4/14/11 1:50pm
Msg #379785

NNA giving out bad information - again!

Florida notaries be aware. In the latest issue, April 7, 2011, of the NNA Notary Bulletin, the Q&A's are about "Dealing With Disabilities" (http://www.nationalnotary.org/bulletin/best_practices/quiz_answers/dealing_with_disabilities.html), the NNA again provides incorrect information and guidance. (Maybe they need to take their own advice, as stated in the answer to the second question.)

Please excuse my ranting, but this is not the first time the NNA has spewed forth with misinformation and misguided those who don't yet know better.

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1. If a signer is hearing- or speech-impaired, you may communicate with the signer through:
A. Written notes while in the signer’s presence
B. Typing messages on a computer while in the signer’s presence
C. A third-party interpreter using sign language in the signer’s presence
D. A or B

Answer: D. If a signer is hearing- or speech-impaired, it is acceptable for the Notary to communicate through written notes or typing messages on a computer — but only while the signer is physically present. Notaries cannot use third parties to interpret messages between the Notary and the signer, because the Notary has no way to know if the signer’s wishes are conveyed accurately by the interpreter. However, a Notary and signer who are both fluent in sign language may use it to communicate directly with each other while the signer is present before the Notary.
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Florida does allow for the use of an interpreter if the notary trusts that interpreter to interpret correctly without embellishment. So, in this case, A, B and C are all correct answers.

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3. A signer unable to sign their own name can:
A. Have another person help move the signer’s arm to sign the document
B. Have the document notarized with a blank signature space
C. Sign using a mark such as “X” with witnesses present, if able
D. Ask someone else to pretend to be the signer so the document can be notarized

Answer: C. If a signer is physically incapable of signing their full name, a signature by mark such as an “X” made in front of witnesses can be signed as an alternative. A third party may not move the signer’s arm or pretend to be the signer in order to notarize the document, and the signature space cannot be left blank. If the signer cannot make any sort of mark, it may be necessary to appoint an attorney in fact or guardian to handle the signer’s affairs. Florida includes a special provision where a disabled person may direct a Notary to sign the disabled person’s name to a document in the presence of two impartial witnesses.
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Most, if not all states, allow some latitude in a principal's signature if the principal is impaired such that they cannot write their own signature. Typically, states will allow the signer to make an "X" and have a witness, or two, indicate that the principal did in fact execute the document and sign with a mark.

In Florida, the notary may be asked to notarize the signature of a person who cannot sign a document in the usual manner. An individual with a disability may direct a notary, or any other disinterested third party, to sign on his or her behalf. (Florida Statutes §117.05(14)(b)(d)) In a sense, one person substitutes his hands for the hands of the person with a disability. The notary should indicate the unusual circumstances in the notarial certificate and their journal, if they have one.

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The guidelines and sample certificates for many special circumstances, can be found in the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, page 36 through 40.

Reply by desktopfull on 4/14/11 2:18pm
Msg #379787

Not surprised here at all, they do this more often than not. But, IMHO, any notary that relies on the NNA to answer any questions they have for a notarization instead of reading their own state's laws deserve anything that happens to them.

Reply by desktopfull on 4/14/11 2:20pm
Msg #379788

Also, another reason not to join, bad info! n/m

Reply by oldhippie_IL on 4/14/11 2:37pm
Msg #379789

Sooo, why does everyone keep joing????? n/m

Reply by Bonnie Frederikson on 4/14/11 2:37pm
Msg #379790

Meant, joining n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 4/14/11 3:42pm
Msg #379798

Devil's advocate

I have been a member of the NNA now for several months, and it is not as bad as it is made out to be.

No, I would not rely on them for any information on notary law. They are California based and I have found that much of the info they give out is based on California's laws rather than the laws that *most* states have.

That said, there is some good in the NNA. I enjoy reading their bi-monthly magazines. Much of the information is redundant but many of their articles are interesting. They *are* active and they do have a presence in the notary world - and they have been influential in making some changes and preventing some unwanted changes to notary law. We need to give them credit where it is due.

Their supplies are top quality. No, not their canvas bags - but their seals and journals are excellent. Their certified signing agent program is a rip off, but the whole NSA profession at large is nothing but rip-offs from left and right. The TEA program is great (although largely useless in areas where TEA services are not needed), and it is reasonably priced. I could stand for the membership - and especially the section membership - to be lesser priced, but I suppose if you want to be in the largest notary association in the country you have to pay the price.

My biggest problem with the NNA is that they do NOT act as advocates for notaries. Quite to the contrary, they actively HURT our profession by soliciting more people to become notaries and signing agents. A true professional association (Nat'l Assoc. of Realtors; Florida Bar; etc.) has elections where the *members* get to elect the officers. You can bet your bottom dollar that the NNA will never have an election, because Milt Valera is quite content raking in the big bucks not doing a whole lot. I think elections might encourage the officers of the association to actually do something that will benefit notaries.

They have also been largely inactive in trying to put this NotaryNow and Virginia electronic notary bill to bed. The NNA should have been at the Virginia legislature protesting this issue and actively speaking out against it, but they really haven't done so. They also should have been outside the Florida state capitol demanding that the governor sign the bill which would have required journals. But the NNA executives prefer to sit in their office and, for the most part, do nothing that might be seen as advocacy. They still haven't done squat about NotaryNow.

The NNA does as good as it can. I really don't think they realize the ways that they are hurting us. It all comes down to money, and none of these high-paid executives at the NNA are going to give up their positions for the sake of democratic governance.

It has been talked about numerous times on this board, but nothing will change until we notaries get together and form our own association - one with elected officers and one that truly does work with lawmakers to *raise* the standards of notaries (primarily by increasing education standards, background check standards, and the modernization of laws in states like Alabama where a notarization fee is $0.50). The problem is, no one wants to put in the effort to actually get such an association up and running. I am 100% willing to participate but I can't do it by myself. The only way such an association could get a real presence amongst state lawmakers is by having large numbers of members - and members that are willing to stand outside their legislature with picket signs if need be.

Until that happens, nothing will change. And that's the bottom line.

Reply by Rhonda Smith Engel on 4/14/11 4:42pm
Msg #379804

It's not a true "National Association"

It's a private company - of which part is "non-profit" but it IS a private company as opposed to a true national association.

My .02

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/14/11 4:45pm
Msg #379805

"non-profit" does not mean they don't make lots of money.

Sorry for the triple negatives.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/14/11 5:16pm
Msg #379808

They have two or more entities, Susan.

The non-profit foundation part does charitable stuff; the NNA that we know is not non-profit.

How much the salaries are in the non-p...we don't know.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/14/11 6:07pm
Msg #379817

Do not believe that you are quite correct, Brenda.

I beleve that he NNA is a " Not for profit" corporation, which means that it is not intended as a for profit business entity. Their net income for notary related purposes, (eg education,, conferences , etc is not taxable , . They are not required to have a election for officers etc, and employees can, of course , be paid. Income in excess of espenses may not be distributed and must be retained for purposes as enumerated in charter.
The NNA Foundation , a separate, but related , entity is a 501(c)3 charitable organizrion. That
means that you can make contributions to it which are deductable for Federal Income Tax purposes. The activites of the Foundation are subject to limited purposes as set forth in the
Intenal Revenue Code.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/14/11 6:21pm
Msg #379822

Okay. No board members out of the

pool served, sale of many retail items at retail cost leads me to believe otherwise. I could be wrong...but it would seem so.

Perhaps a wise Ca. person can check the entity's status. In Tx we can do that and it is very clear if the "assn" is a non-profit.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/14/11 6:33pm
Msg #379825

Re: Okay. No board members out of the

Not going to do this again, but I checked this out years ago and there were 2 NNAs, both had the same Milt guy as head...one WAS a for-profit. That may have changed, but there is a lot of room for 'profit' in a non-profit. To prove that, all one has to do is look up any charity and see how much actually goes to 'the cause' and how much is 'overhead'...which includes employee wages and some very hefty salaries, posh offices, perks, etc., etc.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/14/11 8:11pm
Msg #379834

yeah...I thought I had, too, Lee. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/14/11 6:29pm
Msg #379823

Okay, Bob is right...

http://www.nationalnotary.org/about/index.html

Thanks, Bob. Good to know.

Reply by A S Johnson on 4/15/11 10:37am
Msg #379892

Re: Okay, Bob is right...

>its nationally accredited educational programs<
Who provides the accredition?
I am a member of a trade association for pack and mail stores. We felt it would look good if we could advertize we were "accredited" for packing. Members of our association worte the programs, did the training and the tested the students. Then issued the certification. Yes we all learned much, BUT who over saw us?

Reply by MW/VA on 4/14/11 9:02pm
Msg #379839

As some of us have discovered, misinformation from them is not unusual. When I was starting out a few years back I was a member, bought my start up materials from them, including their "Virginia Notary Law Primer". I was a newbie, so what did I know. It turns out there is a lot of incorrect info in that booklet, more fiction than fact. I have no idea where they actually get the stuff they publish.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/14/11 11:12pm
Msg #379856

I cut them loose before my first NSA year was out. Like

spitting out the first bite of a disgusting entree that looked so promising.