Posted by Matham on 4/5/11 10:13pm
Msg #378832

Refer me in the right direction....

I've been going over my manual from my loan signing class and it is obvious that it's 2007 printing date is outdated, as well as what was taught in class. My instructor never differentiated between fees, but focused on negotiating those fees, strike that, just the one overall fee.

I am at a loss now as I do not know how to formulate my own fees when it comes to loan signing, especially in regard to overnight delivery of docs - why would you have a fee for that in the first place?

Anyway, I am quite certain that fees and coming up with fees have been discussed over and over on this site, but if there's a thread out there that fully details coming up with practical fees from the overnight docs to the printing fees to the standard fee to the travel fee to whatever else fee there is that my loan signing class did not cover, please kindly show me in the direction of that thread.

Because I have a feeling the moment I say $90 for the whole thing, I'm going to screw myself over and I am already starting to feel like my loan signing class/instructor gipped me.

Reply by KODI/CA on 4/5/11 10:30pm
Msg #378833

After monitoring your postings I have one question. Are you for real?????

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/6/11 2:13am
Msg #378841

Dear Matham: Go with that "going to screw myself" feeling.

You bring up the Cost/Benefit Analysis component of Business. Ask yourself, "What does doing my work cost me?" Analyze. There are many ways to learn the skills of entrepreneurship.

As my dear little old sainted grey-haired Grandmother used to say: "Silver Platters are like Unicorns - because if you think Education is expensive, try Ignorance."

Best of luck.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/6/11 3:53am
Msg #378843

I don't think you're going to find what you're looking for in one concise bullet somewhere because this is a complicated subject. My best recommendation is to use the search button with every possible variation you can think of and do as much reading on the subject as you can.

Just a quick thought... as new new NSA, especially in a down market with lots of experienced people not getting as much work as they would like, you're probably going to have a bit of a challenge (depending on where you're located and how much competition is in your area) going after the higher fees. I may get shafted for this, but you've got to start somewhere. I gradually built up my fees by constantly finding new clients who were willing to pay more for more and more experience.

Having said that though, it's important to have a good handle on what are your costs of doing business. There's been tons written on that, too. The key is to remember to factor in ALL your costs of being in business, not just the immediate costs of one signing. Then you know how much you need to make in order to not be losing money when you do an assignment. Those numbers are going to be different for everyone.

Reply by NJDiva on 4/6/11 12:47pm
Msg #378896

"you're probably going to have a bit of a challenge (depending on where you're located and how much competition is in your area) going after the higher fees. I may get shafted for this, but you've got to start somewhere. I gradually built up my fees by constantly finding new clients who were willing to pay more for more and more experience."

Janet, I guess you expected "to be shafted" because well, um, er, echem what you said is offensive (at least to me) and inconsistent with what has been so passionately talked about, in just the most recent posts(last month or so anyway-much much longer than that-probably years)...hmmmm, wouldn't that be considered contrary to what is and has been discussed at great length on these sites about accepting lowball fees?...oh wait, it was a bit passively conveyed but loud and clear to me. I think that IS what was inferred-IMO. I'm a bit confused, is this a mixed message?

What exactly was the minimum fee that was acceptable when you started in this business? Was it below $100? Was it down to $40-65 like they've been trying to lowball us down to? I just started back with this site a couple of years ago and just recently started giving feedback. If I recall correctly, you've been on this site giving feedback for quite some time. I think this is the first time that I have vehemently opposed and been offended by the feedback you have shared.

Unfortunately, for all of us, I believe I was one of those that may have contributed to the lowballing that has gradually gotten us to the disgraceful fees they are offering us now (I know I'm not that powerful, but this was 6 years ago.) I had no clue what to charge, so if a company called me and said they would pay me $50-75 to do a signing I did it. It wasn't until I had a company call and offer me $145 (cause I never say what my fee is, I always make them tell me what they pay) that I realized I was CRAZY to accept those lowball fees. I was inexperienced and had no clue. Additionally, I didn't know how to "figure out" what my costs were. I basically just wanted a bottom line number to start out with.

I'm not sure that I've ever, in the 6 years I've been a CNSA, found "clients who were willing to pay more for more and more experience." I never had any company "raise my fee." (how long ago was that?) What I started out with is what I got....oh wait, they have even tried LOWERING the fee. Can't recall them suggesting/allowing it be RAISED.

It's bad enough we have long timers lowering their standards of what they are worth-thereby degrading EVERYONE's worth in the business along with the field itself.

All I can say is, I hope you're in Janet's (assuming she's still working the business) area if you're going to be anyone's competition.

I might get "shafted" for sharing my honest and humble opinion, but so be it. I stand by what I say and mean it with as much passion as I have for this business.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 4/6/11 1:06pm
Msg #378901

I think you missed the point of Janet's post, she is sayng something more along the lines of what you described; that as a newbie, you don't always understand what's involved so you take fees that are too low.
Like Janet, when I started my business in 2005, I took jobs from companies that pay less (85-100 for edocs) . Over time, I gradually stopped working for them, as I gained more clients that were willing to pay more for my experience.
You yourself saw that in action when you got an offer of $145.
Newbies with no experience cannot demand a premium fee without the commiserate experience. I know Janet is a professional and charges professional fees.

Reply by NJDiva on 4/6/11 1:32pm
Msg #378907

I absolutely agree about Janet being a professional and..., which is why I was so astounded of what was stated. (I also know that she kept it as her experience. But with the lowball fees, I think it's necessary for us to responsibly give a bottom line number.) IMO, it was very vague and could have (and would have for me) left it open to it being acceptable for newbies to agree to lowball fees.

One of the reasons I accepted lowball fees in the beginning is that when I would ask on here and on other sites what a bottom line fee would be, I would get the answers, "well you have to decide for yourself, figure out how much it costs...etc, etc." And even though the XXX had a fee chart for what was an acceptable fee (which has since been rescinded because it's probably why the fees have dropped), I didn't know what is now widely understood as no less than $XXX.

I didn't intend to demean Janet at all. So if that's how it was presented, I apologize. With all due respect, I will still value her feedback.

Reply by Matham on 4/6/11 1:32pm
Msg #378908

My instructor basically said I should take nothing as low as $75 or less and to start at $90 and work your way up the ladder the more experience you gain. But I've noticed that some companies have set fees, which are a little less than $90, so we'll see how far I'll get with those companies.

Reply by NJDiva on 4/6/11 4:04pm
Msg #378938

OMGosh, I just read my post. I am sorry Janet for coming off so abrasively (offensively to my eyes even. ) I know your intentions were right on.

Again, I am sorry.

Cheryl

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/6/11 6:57pm
Msg #378977

No worries and no offense taken - but thanks for the post. In fact, you did make a very good point:

"IMO, it was very vague and could have (and would have for me) left it open to it being acceptable for newbies to agree to lowball fees."

You're right. As I'm often the one trying to clarify things for newbies that could be misinterpreted, I thank you for setting things straight! And thanks to Sheila for adding more clarity to my earlier post. She's absolutely right, of course.

My attempted point was that as newbies hopefully move up from what was near the bottom of acceptable (and I agree with her numbers) you'll seldom get a ss to increase your fees. The companies that pay more also rightfully demand more experience, so what Sheila did a better job of explaining is that a major part of the effort to increase our fees will involve losing some of our older standby clients and moving on to better ones.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/6/11 7:59am
Msg #378846

Try this one: Msg #347694

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/6/11 1:32pm
Msg #378906

Don't limit your general business skills research to the rather specific niche of SA's. Check out broader resources on such general topics as accounting, profit/loss, payment collections, marketing, etc. When I first started, the BusinessOwnersIdeaCafe dot com was a daily read, TONS of info there.

But back to your words "...Because I have a feeling the moment I say $90 for the whole thing, I'm going to screw myself over..." That feeling you have is dead-on, the first person to fix a number during negotiations - loses. What if they were going to offer more?! You need to know your bottom line, know the profit margin you're willing to work for - and then let the negotiations begin.

Reply by Les_CO on 4/6/11 3:09pm
Msg #378929

If you can’t figure out what your true costs are, consider what those in a similar business charge. It is my opinion that virtually no one can print for less than Kinko’s (economy of scale). What does your local Kinko’s charge for a legal copy? If you charge the same you may lose money, but you’ll be close. What does the local courier service charge for a delivery? 5 miles/10 miles? Or what’s the taxi fare? As for your time and expertise, that’s up to you. I’ve heard the ‘average wage in the US is $20 an hour, but it varies by location. Is your time worth $20 or $5 hour? How much time to you actually spend, in getting the order, confirming the order, contacting (confirming) the borrower, getting the docs, printing the docs, delivering the docs to the borrower, doing the actual signing/closing, checking the docs, faxing any required docs, dropping the package, and returning to your office? As I’ve said before I think your location is very important. A NSA in San Francisco, may charge more than a colleague in Lincoln Nebraska, but actually make (net) less. It also depends on what your competition charges, but if they charge less that your costs it doesn’t matter. You can’t work at a loss for long. I charge $125 for a std edoc refi, depending on distance traveled, time of day, and location.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/6/11 3:55pm
Msg #378936

AND REMEMBER that little thing that is never

mentioned - until April 15 - remember that little 30% or so right off the top because ALL of your income is taxable on a federal level - now if you have a state income tax, you have to consider that too...