Posted by yoshaCA on 8/23/11 7:40pm
Msg #394749

what do you put in the journal for certified copy of a POA d

For California only, I read the SOS handbook, and I still am not sure what has to be in the *journal* for a certified copy of a POA document. Any help?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/23/11 9:26pm
Msg #394778

I'd put: Cert Copy/POA doc; all pertinent ID info;

and note any misc circumstances regardless of journal requirements, only because I like to "document the file," as they say.

Hope that helps, Yosha.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/23/11 11:36pm
Msg #394788

This is a good question because it isn't a "traditional" journal entry since you aren't notarizing a signature or verifying anyone's identity.

State law says that we have to journal every notarial act, though, per Gov't Code 8206(a)(1). And it also says that every journal entry must contain:

1) Date and time of act
2) Character/nature of document
3) Signature of person whose signature is being notarized
4) Statement of satisfactory evidence of the identity of person in #3
5) Type of ID used
6) Fee charged
7) Thumbprint, in required

The problem is that #'s 2, 3, 4 and 5 don't even apply since copy certification doesn't require the original signer to be present. In fact, nobody needs to be present at all. Copy certification requests can even be made by mail if they send the original. Also, journal copy certification requests MUST be done in writing.

There is nothing in our handbook or state code to really give us direction on this. So, until (or if) it ever happens the best we can do is write down everything that we can. And... since #7 is not always required... in copy certification situations, #'s 2-5 become optional too.

Technically, we can't really demand ID for a copy certification request because we aren't notarizing anyone's signature and there's no need to verify identity. Even though it's a POA, we also can't demand a thumbprint since... again... we aren't notarizing a signature.

In these cases, I just right down as much as I can and I request that they sign my journal if they're present. But they aren't always present to do that... since they don't need to be. I don't ever ask for ID, though... since it isn't necessary.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/23/11 11:43pm
Msg #394789

Let me add, though...

In the case of POA copy certifications, I always record the nature, date, and names involved in the original notarization. That includes the name and commission number of the notary. That way, if there's any question, there's always a link to the original entry of the original POA. In fact, in one case, I actually wrote to the original notary and requested a copy of her journal entry for the document, just so I could keep it in my journal for record keeping. The situation seemed a little weird... not weird enough that I could decline the certification, but weird enough that I wanted as much information in my records as I could, just in case.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/23/11 11:45pm
Msg #394790

I hear ya, Marian. n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/24/11 1:07am
Msg #394797

Boy, the CA law was sure not designed for the NSA biz. It

seems that a loan pkg containing a fair number of notarized title dox and loan dox, would require more
time to complete the journal, than to do the rest of the signing.
I have seen title packages with a dozen or more notarized title dox, including privacy statements.
The law clearly did not contemplate notarizing multiple dox for a single transaction involving one or two signers.
Do you really need to fill out each of the 7 steps for each document and for each signer, or can you use something like ditto marks and have signer sign once for all dox??
I feel for you guys.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/24/11 1:18am
Msg #394799

One entry per act, and diagonals or ditto marks are a big

no-no. Sadly, there are a lot of notaries in CA who were trained to do do that, and still think it's correct because their "teacher told them so" but they're wrong.

In October 2009, the CA Sec of State clarified this to their education vendors -- which means that everyone teaching in California should know this. From the meeting notes:

"Q, When multiple notarial acts are performed, is it acceptable for a diagonal line to be drawn from the first document to the last document in the notary public journal with a single signature covering all transactions? In addition, can ditto (“) marks be used in the journal?

A. Government Code section 8206 requires that the notary public's journal include all the information for "each official act." Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act."


So yes.... if I've got a loan package with with lots of notarizations... then each one gets it's own line, signature, etc. It may be annoying and time consuming, but it's state law. It's also another one of the reasons why I don't take low fees for that work. If I do a loan package for a married couple with 16 notarizations, state law says I can charge $160 for those notarizations alone. That doesn't include printing, time, travel, etc. Journals are cheap so it's no big deal.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/24/11 1:24am
Msg #394800

Re: One entry per act, and diagonals or ditto marks are a big

BTW, one of the best reasons I've seen for this is Msg #367522 from Lisa T. She explained it so well.

Reply by Notarysigner on 8/24/11 1:24pm
Msg #394840

Not mention you run thru a bunch of journals also n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 8/24/11 9:46am
Msg #394812

Re: Boy, the CA law was sure not designed for the NSA biz. It

I write in my journal “std loan pkg” and tic dot. ID the signers, note loan co and loan number, and SS or title co. and fee. No signature no thumb print !

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 8/24/11 11:39am
Msg #394824

Bob - I always follow California notary Law, so

Yes, it is necessary.
Ditto marks are acceptable and come in handy.\It is so good that you feel for us.
I luv it, Bob.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/24/11 11:44am
Msg #394826

No, ditto marks are NOT acceptable....

That's what I'm talking about. FOr some reason, lots and lots of notaries still think that it's okay. Not sure why.

Stephanie, per the CA SOS, ditto marks are a no-no:

"Q, When multiple notarial acts are performed, is it acceptable for a diagonal line to be drawn from the first document to the last document in the notary public journal with a single signature covering all transactions? In addition, can ditto (“) marks be used in the journal?

A. Government Code section 8206 requires that the notary public's journal include all the information for "each official act." Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act.""

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 8/24/11 12:20pm
Msg #394831

Marian - you are so right. n/m

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 8/24/11 12:22pm
Msg #394833

I use a separate line for each Notarial Act, but

sometimes, and I'm wrong, I use ditto marks.

Reply by CH2inCA on 8/24/11 12:24pm
Msg #394834

OT--Type of Journal

Sorry that we're off topic a bit here..

BUT, that makes the journal sold here, with little squares for checking off the documents unacceptable. Not the journal really--the checking multiple boxes on one line.

I bring this up because I recently (February) took a Notary/NSA course and the instuctor promoted this Journal. I specifically asked how it could be legal for CA notaries to just check boxes. He said that each check mark was it's own 'entry'. HUH?!!!

Needless to say, I didn't argue. But came away feeling that I'd just tossed away about 275.00. Grrr. (price of both courses)

Anyway I do have one of those journals but make a seperate entry (line each) for each notarized signature.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/24/11 12:33pm
Msg #394835

Re: OT--Type of Journal

I also use the NotRot Journal sold here... but I never even use the checkmarks. They're essentially useless to me.

The journal that you use doesn't matter... it's just a journal with boxes and lines. What matters is the content YOU put in it. In fact, as I've said before, you can use a simple lined notebook for your journal provided that you records all of the required information. There is no law in California dictating the journal format that we use... just that it be "sequential" in nature. I know one guy who doesn't carry around a bulky journal at all. He uses a small moleskin notebook and writes everything out by hand. I'm sure he goes through a ton of them... but there's nothing "wrong" or "illegal" about using it.

All of these pre-printed journals on the market are just a convenience for us.