Posted by kcg on 12/23/11 1:29pm
Msg #407449
I Would Like Your Opinion
A very strange thing happened this week, it's been bouncing around in my head and I thought I'd see what your take is.
When I sat down at the table with the BO's, Mrs says "are you really Katreena?" and chuckles. I said I am and asked why. She then goes on to tell me that they refinanced early this year and the gal who came said she was Jane Doe.....all the docs were already signed and notarized by Jane Doe. Halfway through the signing, Mrs.'s sister came in and recognized the gal and said "Mary...what a surprise"..... Big surprise since Mary had introduced herself as Jane. Mary proceeded to explain that her cousin, Jane, was a notary signing agent and when she was busy, she would notarize the docs and let Mary take them out posing as her. Since nothing had to be signed at the table, it was all ok. Jane always doubled checked for accuracy before the docs were sent in. Wow.
Now I know this is highly unethical and I'm sure the title company would freak but I'm wondering if this is actually an illegal act? What are the ramifications? Since the docs were already notarized, imposter was not forging anything, what if any laws are broken?
I have to say this was one of the strangest scenarios I've encountered in 6 years of doing this - you can never say ... "now I've heard it all"
| Reply by Belinda/CA on 12/23/11 1:51pm
Msg #407451
So, Notary was sending out signed and sealed certificates
for a loan signing that had not taken place at the time she signed and sealed?
No one appeared before this Notary herself and she notarized the docs?
Notary did not check ID herself, verify identification, willingness, and awareness?
Also, she was letting someone else pose as her?
Also, someone was impersonating a Notary?
Notary is collecting a fee from an SS and didn't even do the job. Not to mention most SS have a 'no sub-contacting' clause in their contracts.
Who administered the oath/aff if needed? Ha This just gets better and better the more you think about it!
These two are in cahoots and do this often!?!
The errors of this mess go on and on. Maybe someone has the time to list out all the errors and laws broken for us.
By the way, what do you mean nothing had to be signed at the table? The loan docs had to be signed, correct?
These two have broken, are breaking and will continue to break the law BIG TIME!
Do you feel a responsibility to expose any of this to the authorities? You say you have been doing this six years and you don't know if this is legal or not? That sounds fishy or scary, one of the two.
| Reply by Larry/IL on 12/23/11 2:06pm
Msg #407452
6 yrs & your wondering if this is actually an illegal act?
I would have wonder if the O/P isn't the one doing this by even asking if it's actually illegal. Kinda scary to think someones been closing loans for 6 years and doesn't know the answer to that. JMO
| Reply by kcg on 12/23/11 2:45pm
Msg #407456
This is why I don't post often.
I'm not posting this clearly enough.
Yes, it's illegal as all holy hell.
No....I did not do this.
No, I did not ask to see their docs so I do not know the name of the person who did this and yes I will investigate.
Sorry.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/23/11 3:36pm
Msg #407459
Notarization is a terrible word
Notarization is a terrible word because it's so vague. The most common notarial act in real estate closings is taking an acknowledgement. This is a mult-step process:
1. Identify the signer.
2. Form a layman's opinion about whether the signer is competent.
3. Look for any apparent signs of duress.
4. Observe the signer sign the document, or ask the signer if he/she signed it.
5. Ask the signer if the execution of the document is his/her free act and deed (or words to that effect).
6. Record the acknowledgement in a certificate at the end of the document.
The steps don't have to be done in exactly that order, but all the steps are part of the notarial act. If another person pretends to be the notary and performs any one of the steps, the non-notary is impersonating a notary.
So the only way Mary Doe might not have impersonated a notary is if the notarized documents had all been signed by people other than the ones Mary Doe was meeting with, and the only ones Mary Doe was collecting signatures for did not need notarization. I very much doubt that is the situation kcq had in mind.
| Reply by Belinda/CA on 12/23/11 7:02pm
Msg #407472
You would be impersonating a notary if
others thought you were the notary and you did not correct their thinking. If you did not point out, "I am not the notary, just standing in for her," and you let them think you are the notary you are impersonating a notary. You are not 'not a notary' by omission of mentioning facts.
| Reply by CinOH on 12/23/11 4:40pm
Msg #407463
Yep. It's illegal and the documents "notarized" are invalid because there was no personal appearance before the notary before the documents were signed and stamped. There is no such thing as notarization by proxy. Both the notary and the cousin should be prosecuted. I'm shocked the borrower never reported this to her loan officer or the title company.
What are the ramifications? Look at your state's notary laws. Also, both the notary and her cousin can be sued by the lender, borrower, Title, and any number of other affected parties for any costs or issues resulting from having to fix the mess.
| Reply by PegiT_MN on 12/23/11 4:46pm
Msg #407464
Absolutely!!!! CinOH is absolutely correct. I can't believe original poster would spend the time and energy to post asking us what we think. If she has been in the business for as long as she says she has, she should know the answer already. She should be finding out the identity of Jane and Mary Doe and turn their arses in with authorities. It's people like them that ruin it for everybody else. Somebody always trying to get over.
| Reply by Belinda/CA on 12/23/11 7:03pm
Msg #407473
This is all goofy. n/m
| Reply by jba/fl on 12/23/11 7:41pm
Msg #407477
Personally - I would like your opinion. It seems you don't
have a clear one yet.
| Reply by Jim/AL on 12/23/11 9:53pm
Msg #407487
Wow, unethical, illegal, immorral and quite an amazing
little scheme until they get caught. Just wonder if the fake notary carried a journal, spare stamp/seal etc...
Thanks...now I know what to get my son for Christmas.
| Reply by jba/fl on 12/23/11 10:03pm
Msg #407488
remember - you have to get him a car too. n/m
| Reply by Jim/AL on 12/23/11 10:25pm
Msg #407489
Re: remember - you have to get him a car too.
I see you've been talkin to my kid Linda...must be YOU that put that wacky idea in his head, lol.
He does know that daddy has been faking being a notary for many years, but cannot convince him to jump in with me.
Have a Blessed and Merry Christmas!
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/24/11 2:25am
Msg #407494
The legality (or lack thereof) of what these people did will vary from state to state, but in my state, I believe the notary could be guilty of more than one misdemeanor and if there was a security instrument involved (DOT or Mortgage), the imposter could be guilty of a felony. Not something to mess around with.
I would add to "highly unethical" and probably very illegal, that it's also greedy and stupid!
| Reply by 101livescan on 12/24/11 10:44am
Msg #407511
What is wrong with our country is what this notary and her cohort practice. Complete fraud, lack of integrity, no moral compass.
She should hang it up and call it a day! No ethics. This reminds me of a notary who came to my notary class in Pasadena a few years back, there were two schools at the Hilton that day, and this woman was with her friend, checked in and realized she was in the wrong class, as we were looking high and low for her online registration. Turns out she was enrolled in the other school's class. BUT she took off with our class study guides when she moved on. I tracked her down in the next room and requested she return it, as we only had the exact number available for our enrollees. She refused to give it to me. I walked up to the instructor of the class and told him what was going on, she got up to go sign in at the front desk, and her friend handed me the study guide, apologizing for her friend. Later at lunch, I went to the hotel restaurant to get some soup and I approached the woman who was seated with her friend for lunch and told her she might pass the test, but lacked the integrity to be an officiating notary charged with upholding the ethics of our profession. I could see her dying of embarrassment in front of her co-worker. I am completely amazed at what people think they can get away with in this world. We all have our interview with God at one point.
I hope someone calls her on this practice. This should not be ignored. This person, and her cousin, need to rap on the knuckles. Mary and Jane should not be notaries. Without the notary present, it is a completely invalid and illegal signing. There are so many rules broken here that this notary needs to resign her commission on her own, which she likely won't do, but the SOS needs to know about it, as well as the LO and escrow company/ss who assigned this signing to Jane.
Don't hesitate!
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/24/11 2:30pm
Msg #407527
I'd report them both...and even give the borrowers'
name to whoever I report them to for follow-up. Indiana is a TPL state, is it not??? I think there's many laws broken and issues here...
JMO
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