Posted by CJ on 12/2/11 3:00pm
Msg #405615

Thoughts on Invalid IDs.

Every once in a while, I run into an invalid ID, and the borrowers really get pushy about using it. Maybe it is expired, or it has the wife’s former name on it, but they explain and argue with me why I SHOULD be able to use it. Of course, I tell them no – no – no, and they just get angrier. I suggest we get two credible witnesses to vouch for them, and the borrowers claim they don’t know anyone on the block, their family lives in Antarctica, they are not members of any clubs or churches, and they don’t want anyone from work to know their personal business. They basically want me to commit a crime for their convenience. NO!

Today, I signed a guy who works for the District Attorney. Part of his job is to arrest notaries. We got talking about invalid IDs, and he explained that if the notary DOES sign someone using improper ID, not only is the notary arrested, but the signers are arrested too because they agreed to use the improper ID. This is “conspiracy to commit a crime”, which is ALWAYS a felony. So next time they are leaning on you to break the law for their convenience, let them know that if they do that, they are risking jail as well.

Reply by Bee_CA on 12/2/11 3:28pm
Msg #405622

Good to know...not too long ago I had two in one week with expired/lost ID's. The guy who lost his had gone to DMV for a replacement, but he only had the computer printout, no photo to match up. He tried to convince me that he wouldn't go thru all the hassle of a refi and then commit fraud...I could trust him. I politely reminded him that I didn't really know him and that it was MY job/life on the line. The other was an elderly lady that never bothered to renew her DL since she wasn't driving anymore. I explained that she needed to get an ID card. The husband said "It still looks like her. Why can't you use it?"...it had expired about 5 years earlier.

Both situations, we used two credible witnesses...

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 12/2/11 4:25pm
Msg #405635

Thanks for posting this, CJ! Great info. However, the people that are really bad are not pushy beligerent borrowers (my attitude with them is: In this day and age of identity mania, you can't be bothered to get valid, current ID? I think this to myself, of course. I mean, we now need current valid ID to register at a motel!) but the TCs and SSs who expect you to do whatever is necessary (put yourself in jeopardy) to get these people signed and clearly won't use you again if you don't "play ball."

But mostly I want to tell Bee that I have learned my lesson on CIWs. I used to use them in cases like you describe. However just recently I got called for a refi and recognized the name because I had signed them before (amid much turmoil.) At that time, she used her previous married name on her ID; she had not changed to her current husband's name. However, somehow she was on title in her current husband's last name. He acted all mad that she hadn't updated her license, and the SS asked me to use CIWs, which I did. So imagine my surprise when I get another refi for them - more than a year and a half later - and she's still using the same name - which is her name, then and now. It turns out she never had any intention of changing her name on her ID or for any other reason and that I had been suckered the first time into using two CIWs just so she could sign the loan. In other words the CIWs took an oath that they knew such and such was her name when in fact it wasn't her name and never will be her name. So I told them end of the trail, here and now. The docs were then redrawn in both names (their sniveling brokers were really ticked that I "inconvenienced" their precious, rich borrowers but there was nuthin they could do since copies of their tax returns showed she filed in her previous married name!)... This was my wakeup-call that I'm pretty much through with CIWs unless they have a reallly really good excuse. Being elderly doesn't cut it... losing your ID doesn't cut it (where have I heard that before?) and "I just haven't gotten around to changing to my married name" certainly won't cut it - with me anymore...because what if you come around full circle, meet these people again and they still don't have vaild ID? Or how many notaries down the road are going to be using CIWs for these same people? That's what I'm going to be asking myself in the future - how many times have these people already been CIW'd?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/2/11 4:49pm
Msg #405646

I think there's a risk of going too far to the other extreme, as well, although you make a very good point.

I did a trust execution last week for a couple well into their 90's, living in an assisted living facility. (They'd been married for 64 years! Cute as can be, and knew exactly what they were signing.) They presented IDs to me that expired in the mid 1990s. They hadn't driven since then and didn't see the need to get a new one. PLUS, their daughter, who was in attendance said that she was told that those ID's would be "no problem". (I've since sent a note to the attorney's office.)

To me, this is a perfect set-up for use of Credible Witnesses. I did let them know about the DMV option of having someone come to them, but at about 95, 96, I'm guessing this isn't a high priority item for them...

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 12/2/11 5:26pm
Msg #405650

Yes, we don't want to go bonkers over this; the situation you described certainly would meet my new threshold for CIWs. I just intend to be wary in situations that I now can see have the potential to come around later and bite me in the you know where .... and thought I'd share my experience for others to think about.

Actually, many CA notaries who post here are far more stringent than I ever was in interpreting the CIW statute. To read some of their posts, there's practically no situation where CIWs would apply ...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/2/11 7:50pm
Msg #405665

Yes, thanks for sharing! n/m

Reply by CJ on 12/2/11 5:04pm
Msg #405648

A good point GoldenGirl

If the wife never did change her name to her "married" name, then how can the CIW swear that she is Jane [Married Name]? Hmmmm.

Reply by CJ on 12/2/11 5:06pm
Msg #405649

Another experience that I had.

I had the borrowers very angry that I would not do it, and they said, "The last notary did it, and she never got in trouble!

Reply by ikando on 12/2/11 5:50pm
Msg #405654

I envy you in California where it's spelled out what you can and cannot accept as ID. In Oklahoma, the only statute offering what is acceptable identification is through the new "Voter ID" law that lists what can be used at the polls to allow a person to vote--including a utility bill for the address at which they are living.

Because of this forum, years ago I contacted the SOS' office for specific information, and was told that a current driver license, state ID or Passport are acceptable ID for notary purposes. I'm sure other notaries in the state have probably done the same.

I've used my best judgment in several cases, like the lady who obtained an nonexpiring license when she was 25--over 25 years ago. True, it could have been her mother's ID, but for the general notary work I was doing, I made the leap of faith.

My favorite are those who have an expired NON-driver license who are driving a vehicle to meet me. One man offered such a license that had expired over 3 years prior to our meeting. His excuse, he didn't have time to do anything about it! Hmpf.

Anyway, I empathize with you because signers will offer all kinds of reasons why I should follow them off the cliff because someone else jumped.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/2/11 9:11pm
Msg #405672

Few people have safe deposit boxes, many carry SSC

I volunteer for a disaster relief organization. Among other things, I go to fires and provide hotel rooms and debit cards to disaster victims. I've probably interviewed over 50 families. Two had renters insurance. None had safe deposit boxes. Many kept their social security cards in their wallets (can't imagine why anyone would do that). I know the fires were real; I walked through the burned buildings, or talked to a 1st responder who did. People really do get all their ID destroyed. Notaries may have to take part in getting replacement ID. Credible witnesses may be necessary.

I'm sure there are people who falsely claim their ID was destroyed, either to commit fraud, or just because their too lazy or disorganized to get current ID. But real losses occur too.

By the way, I carry my optional journal and optional seal just in case a notarization will help the families along, but haven't encountered a case where they were needed (yet).