Posted by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 12:34pm
Msg #371578
Florida notaries
I recently wrote a letter to the Florida Bar about the possibility of notaries being allowed to issue subpoenas. The letter I received back worries me:
The Committee unanimously decided not to recommend to the Florida Supreme Court that [notaries be allowed to issue subpoenas]. The reasons expressed by the Committee members were several. The current crisis involving questionable foreclosure affidavits has revealed numerous problems with documents authenticated by notaries. * THERE IS SIMPLY LITTLE EFFECTIVE REGULATION OVER THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF NOTARIES IN FLORIDA. *
...great. It's only a matter of time before notaries are no longer trusted at all.
If everyone knows that we have "little effective regulation" then why won't anyone DO SOMETHING about it?! I have said it over and over... we have a crisis in Florida. Too many notaries who flew through the online course and didn't retain a thing... that just "got their notary" so they could do whatever their employer tells them to do. As we all know, this played a large part in the foreclosure crisis. But where does it end? The Florida Bar obviously feels that notarized documents can NOT BE TRUSTED. Soon, the courts will feel the same way, and documents will have to be notarized by a clerk or judge to be recognized. Think of the thousands of affidavits filed in court every day, notarized by a notary, and how many of them had no oath administered? 90%? How many of them were notarized without the signer's personal appearance? Without proper ID?
No legislators are interested in notary reform. I have tried time and time again to get a local representative to sponsor a bill to change the notary regulations, and it ends with nothing.
We all need to rally together, come up with a proposed bill that we all agree on, and bug the crap out of our local representatives and senators to sponsor it. We need higher bond, stricter educational requirements, mandatory journals, severe sanctions for those who fail to administer an oath when required, criminal punishment for those who try to solicit notaries to commit an illegal act, a stronger notary section in the Governor's office... the list goes on. There is a lot more to being a notary than knowing how to use a rubber stamp.
Unless we act NOW, to restore the respect to the office of Notary Public, we are doomed . Public perception of us will continue to diminish, as well as the trust of the court systems. The clock is ticking, people. Either we need to do something now or expect that in the next 50 years notaries will be non existent.
Sorry to vent, but this really concerns me.
| Reply by BeanFL on 2/4/11 12:39pm
Msg #371581
Well said , Florida to will become a attorney state if nothing is done.
| Reply by A S Johnson on 2/4/11 1:04pm
Msg #371586
Same can be said for Texas.
Notaries need to start forming countywide Notary organizations. The Notaries who atten will be those interested in the reforms needed.
Then, a statewide organization.
Their is a lot of work in this, But, if something is xdone.......
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/4/11 1:08pm
Msg #371587
Florida Rules of Civil Procedure
RULE 1.410 SUBPOENA
1) Every subpoena for testimony before the court shall be issued by an attorney of record in an action or by the clerk under the seal of the court and shall state the name of the court and the title of the action and shall command each person to whom it is directed to attend and give testimony at a time and place specified in it.
Why would a notary want to issue a subpoena??
| Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 1:14pm
Msg #371590
As someone who deals with subpoenas on a daily basis, I think it would be practical for notaries to be able to issue subpoenas. Many other states authorize notaries to do this. Subpoenas intended to be served out of state often have to be issued by a clerk because without the "official seal" out-of-state recipients may challenge the issuance of an attorney-issued subpoena. This means drive to the courthouse, pay to park, stand in line (spent 45 minutes on my last trip), and then pay to have the clerk issue the subpoena, versus, have a notary in your office issue it.
This particular issue is not the point of my post. We as Florida notaries need to do something in order to make changes, because it is becoming more apparent that others are not interested in making the change.
| Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/4/11 1:44pm
Msg #371591
Robert,
Which states currently authorize notaries to issue subpoenas?
| Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 2:06pm
Msg #371593
Connecticut, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Ohio...
I'm sure there are more.
| Reply by SharonH/OH on 2/4/11 2:27pm
Msg #371599
Re: Connecticut, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Ohio...
Just to clarify, I think Ohio limits our power to issue subpoenas only when related to depositions.
From the Cincinnati Bar Association's online manual:
" Powers: Jurisdiction.
A notary public may, throughout the state,
1. administer oaths required or authorized by law,
2. take and certify depositions,
3. take and certify acknowledgements of deeds, mortgages, liens, and powers of attorney,
and other instruments of writing, and
4. receive, make, and record notarial protests.
In taking depositions, he shall have the power which is by law vested in judges of county courts to compel the attendance of witnesses and punish them for refusing to testify. Sheriffs and constables are required to serve and return all process issued by notaries public in the taking of depositions.
-Ohio Revised Code, Sec. 147.07"
I've never done it though.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 2/4/11 3:00pm
Msg #371603
Texas n/m
| Reply by BrendaTx on 2/4/11 3:04pm
Msg #371606
As Sharon mentioned, Texas has limited notary/subpoena
powers.
| Reply by Cari on 2/4/11 2:14pm
Msg #371597
I think this is a bit extreme Robert....
"The Florida Bar obviously feels that notarized documents can NOT BE TRUSTED. Soon, the courts will feel the same way, and documents will have to be notarized by a clerk or judge to be recognized."
Extreme rationalization, and so not going to happen, mainly due to budget constraints that most states are facing at this time. And this issue is probably on the bottom of the totem pole.
Perhaps the appropriate direction is not pushing, poking or prodding your state legislatures, but the FBA?
If you haven't already, why don't you send the FBA your suggested changes for the florida notarial law? Perhaps become a lobbyist?
I'd even cc your letters, to your local state legislatures just to show how very serious you are about the matter.
Good luck.
| Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 3:40pm
Msg #371611
What is FBA? n/m
| Reply by BrendaTx on 2/4/11 3:55pm
Msg #371617
Florida Bar Association n/m
| Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 4:00pm
Msg #371618
What can the Florida Bar do?
They don't make laws. The only reason I contacted them about the Subpoenas is because the bar makes the rules regarding who can issue subpoenas.
I'm not being critical! If anyone has any ideas how to push this agenda I welcome them! I just don't think the bar can really help me.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/4/11 9:39pm
Msg #371636
Re: What can the Florida Bar do?
Robert, I think what Cari is talking about is that you wrote "The Florida Bar obviously feels .." and I think she is saying that you might want to give some thought to working with them to help change that view to a more positive one.
Obviously, if they are in control of making the decisions in the area you are interested in, their view of Notary Public's is an important thing to consider.
Good luck with it. 
| Reply by jba/fl on 2/4/11 9:56pm
Msg #371637
So, MM, what you are saying is......
Keep the stiff upper lip and play golf with them. A good sporting competition?
And Robert: Do you feel like a winner?
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/5/11 4:47am
Msg #371643
Re: So, MM, what you are saying is......
Sure he does. 
If nothing else, use the good will to create more networking and business opportunities. If some members distrust Notaries in general but like you, who do you think would be their first choice to be willing to help out or possibly give a business introduction to?
Just a thought.
| Reply by jba/fl on 2/5/11 9:18am
Msg #371657
Robert - also see #33131 on JP forum
about what you will learn through all this. I think this is just up your alley quite frankly.
| Reply by SharonMN on 2/4/11 3:41pm
Msg #371614
Re: I think this is a bit extreme Robert....
The real issue is that no one except the notary gives a rip whether notarial procedure is followed or not. The people who are drafting the documents don't know whether they want an ack or a jurat. Employers of notaries draft forms that they decide need to be notarized, and then ask the notary to stamp them after the fact. These people don't know what a notary is and don't want assurance that ID has been checked, the oath given, and competence determined. For some reason, they just want a fancy little stamp on their document. Changes to the law won't do much if no one follows it or even cares about following it.
>>> "The Florida Bar obviously feels that notarized documents can NOT BE TRUSTED. Soon, the courts will feel the same way, and documents will have to be notarized by a clerk or judge to be recognized."
| Reply by MW/VA on 2/4/11 2:57pm
Msg #371601
My guess is that you're not the only notary that is also
acting as a paralegal. Notaries have distinct duties. IMO to try to stretch beyond that is UPL, which most of us know not to engage in.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 2/4/11 2:59pm
Msg #371602
Remarks
(1) Develop and endorse a five- to ten-year plan. You are talking about an expense for which there are no budgeted funds. That will be the first line of defense against your proposals.
(2) The RULONA may not be perfect for your wish list, but I'd look at that and work with the person in Florida who is the Uniform Law Commissioner and build a relationship with him or her. Also, the RULONA has been approved by the ABA, so it's already recognized as current, applicable and the language is already written and tied up with a bow.
The RULONA addresses some of your wish list. From memory:
We need higher bond------not covered
stricter educational requirements-----covered
mandatory journals------covered
severe sanctions for those who fail to administer an oath when required----not covered
criminal punishment for those who try to solicit notaries to commit an illegal act----not covered
a stronger notary section in the Governor's office-----not covered
(3) Start with the least expensive reform first.
As the recently published NASS report summarized, there is a lot to be done to bring the office of notary public where it needs to be, but there is currently a major problem with most state budgets.
As one working inside an agency that's kind of under the state's umbrella, I would recommend that you find the least expensive (to the state) step of your desires to work on as priority no. one.
For instance, present a five-year plan with a slight raise of application fees each year to fund subsequent steps. This won't cost the state much to implement and would perceivably increase the state's revenue.
Next, work toward a raise of bond, but don't be surprised when that's met with heavy opposition.
(4) Education. I will tell you one reason why you do not already have mandatory testing...or at least why we do not have mandatory education and testing in Texas. It is because bonding/insurance agencies have a huge lobby to the legislature. If you hamstring the process with mandatory testing you will be pulling income out of the pockets of insurance agencies.
Raising of bond: This will also be an insurance matter. You'll have to get buy in from the insurance profession AND from the bar association in order to get a raise in bond amounts. That may be easy with the insurance folks, or it may be hard, depending on how they see the bottom line to their pockets.
The bar will be a thorn in your side. The members of the bar association are usually responsible for paying for their notaries' bonds. They will not want to pay for the increased bonds, or the education requirements, OR the eight hours that a legal assistant may miss for training. (Seriously. I have heard this argument at the state capitol.)
(5) Never believe that the "right" thing is the thing that will be legislated. Your efforts will have to show that YOUR changes are wanted by more voters than the sum of all votes in all professions that would oppose it. Right now, it sounds like you may be up against both the insurance profession and the bar association...and their back scratching friends. I do not mean this offensively to any profession, I am just saying that lobbyists work together to get things done.
It can be done, but it will have to be very grassroots and very time intensive. The timeline will not be short. Reform is a good word. Reform usually means a program that spans several years.
(6) In the meantime, organize and watch the laws closely and howl like a scalded cat if something comes up that is oppressive to the office of notary public. You've got your work cut out for you. Roger of OH has been active in organizing a true notary public association. He might offer insight.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/4/11 3:40pm
Msg #371612
Florida notaries
Some of what you are proposing seems contradictory to me - and it seems to be two separate issues. On one hand, you seem to be agreeing that there's something lacking with the regulations and training for notaries in your state. I think that's probably universally true across the country, and I think you made a lot of good recommendations for attempting to improve the situation.
However, given what most of us here realize about the level of incompetence that exists among the notary ranks out there, it doesn't make sense to me to then be proposing adding something like subpoena authority to notaries. It makes more sense to me for that to be something that falls under the authority of a paralegal, but most notaries don't have near the legal experience or training that a paralegal does (even in states where they don't have required training).
If so many notaries are already doing a poor job of properly handling basic notary responsibilities, it seems to me that it would be opening a huge can of worms to expand their duties into issuing subpoenas. In fact, I can see that turning into a potential nightmare. 'Course, I'll admit I know little to nothing about subpoenas, but that's kind of the point.
Maybe someone from one of the states that DO allow it could enlighten us on how that works (other than Louisiana, which, as we know, is an entirely different situation).
| Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/4/11 3:54pm
Msg #371616
Janet, I agree with you
I sent my letter about subpoenas many months ago, even before the foreclosure mess started to bring notary fraud to the light. I knew that there was a problem with notary standards in Florida, but having this reaffirmed by the Florida Bar is concerning. Until we are able to weed out these terrible notaries that simply don't care about their position, adding any other notarial duties is not appropriate.
But again, the point of my post is not the subpoenas. My point is that Florida notaries NEED to come together and start lobbying so we can save our profession. The first poster was right when they said Florida is heading towards attorney-only closings. Its apparent that the Florida Bar no longer trusts notaries.
| Reply by Cari on 2/5/11 8:14am
Msg #371644
Re: Janet, I agree with you
I think that ALL notaries nationwide should join their statewide notary associations, that are independent and free from the XYZ folks.
Any change or reform, starts locally and seriously take into account what Brenda posted.
By organizing locally, then putting together statewide issues/agenda, you can go forward to your legislatures and state bar associations.
When done in a professional fashion, there is no way that you'll be ignored....totally.
(BTW, the XYZ assoc. has a HUGE lead in this area, and is one to watch as far as lobbying is concerned.)
| Reply by MonicaFL on 2/5/11 12:16pm
Msg #371673
Well, I worked as a paralegal and legal secretary for 30 years and i ask this - why would anyone want to issue a subpoena if they don't know what they are doing? Also, I would venture to say that one would need to be part of a "law team" in some way to know who to subpoena, where to serve it, when to serve it and have access to the necessary information i.e., who is being sued, etc. - Folks, process servers can serve subpoenas, but that cannot issue them - the way things are now and have been one has to take the subpoena to the courts to have it file stamped (which actually registers it being processed). What I am trying to say here is this - subpoenas are NOT that easy - there is a lot of work preparing them. You have to know the case, the parties involved, the attorneys involved, and a lot of other stuff. I say let the law firms do their thing and we will do ours. JMHO
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/5/11 8:42pm
Msg #371704
"why would anyone want to issue a subpoena if they don't know what they are doing?"
The only reason I can think of is if they have improper intent... I agree to leave it to the experts.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/7/11 6:53am
Msg #371777
Another angle to explore ...
I'm a little late to the party, but I read the whole thread and found quite a bit of valuable points made. In your endeavors, Robert, I think you might consider the old bit about "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". (Not meaning to imply any entity as an "enemy", but the saying makes my point.)
The various Bar Assoc. have boatloads of money and that = influence (reality). Even their members, though, are feeling the economic pinch - and aren't likely to embrace anything that could take something of 'theirs' and give it to someone else. However - I don't agree that they would gain from obliterating notaries, as we do so much of the grunt-work. I don't see atty's preferring to be the only ones able to sign-sign-sign all day long.
Anyway ...the angle you might ponder on and approach your legislators with is JOBS, JOBS & Private industry JOBS. Key word: JOBS. This gives them something they can put on their little website banner as supporting.
Increased education? Hmmm...could that open up a venue for NEW private enterprise? Could that give someone a JOB? Testing ...JOBS? The public doesn't much care about notarial statutes - they can't relate. JOBS? THAT scores.
How many people in CA have a JOB relative to their own educational requirements, testing, etc.? How much revenue is generated with those JOBS? How much did it cost the State of CA to implement? Who regulates those educators & testing systems - and how much is that costing, v.s. the revenue generated? How much money is flowing in the private sector, and how much of it is the XYZ's compared to Small Business endeavors?
Just thought-food.
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