Posted by Salvador Avalos on 2/10/11 10:59am
Msg #372156

Proof of Guradianship Form

Has anybody heard of a proof of guardianship form. A customer informed that her life insurance company is requesting it for her claim. She is the birth mother of her children. I would think that the birth certificate be sufficient proof. If anybody has a form please let me know. I have researched it in the internet, but most of the information I have found relates to non-biological parents.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/10/11 11:06am
Msg #372157

Re: Proof of Guradianship Form...more info needed...

Perhaps not for the children - If she is the legally appointed guardian of *anyone* (parent, grandparent, husband, disabled adult/child), she files the claim on their behalf - she has to show her legal authority to file that claim.

This is not your concern nor is it your responsibility to provide the forms...if she doesn't know what they need or why they need it, then she should ask them for more information and if all else fails, consult an attorney or the appropriate court.

MHO

Reply by James Dawson on 2/10/11 11:20am
Msg #372159

If the forms requires notarization, your responsibility ends with you notarizing the Doc AFTER it has been filled out completely and you establish the identity of the borrower. Most notaries DO NOT provide forms for clients. IMO

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/10/11 11:29am
Msg #372161

The insurance company will have the form for her

I sold life insurance for 10 years. Every form that the company I worked for ever requested for a client to fill out was available from the company itself. They should be able to fax or email her a copy if her local agent does not have one.

Also, as Linda and James mentioned, as a notary, and unless you are a licensed insurance agent or attorney yourself, you should not be providing any forms as that may fall under UPL. To avoid opening yourself up to any possible legal liability, I would tell her to request the form from the insurance company.

Reply by Salvador Avalos on 2/10/11 11:38am
Msg #372167

In no way do I provide or fill forms, however, the question itself intrigued me. How is it possible that birth certificate does not provide proof for this situation. Then again that is why I am not an attorney.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/10/11 11:47am
Msg #372169

Possible reason

If a minor child was listed as the beneficiary on a parent's (or grand parent's) policy might be one reason I could think of.

Another might be if parents listed each other as the main beneficiaries and then listed their children as secondary ones and both parents died at the same time (in an accident for example).

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/10/11 11:51am
Msg #372170

forgot to add

I think the reason that we may have assumed that you might have thought about providing the form was your reference to your internet searches. I didn't realize they were just for personal knowledge research. Sorry about that.

Reply by James Dawson on 2/10/11 11:54am
Msg #372172

He stated..."iF anybody has this form let him know n/m

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 2/10/11 12:17pm
Msg #372174

You are correct, James. My bad. LOL :-) n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/10/11 12:18pm
Msg #372175

Florida law re: notaries giving out forms

Here is the info on UPL that is from my book:

Many notaries often worry about inadvertently engaging in the unauthorized practice of law. Although notaries are not attorneys, there are some legal determinations which notaries can make and there are some legal services non-attorneys can provide. Case law has established that there is nothing prohibiting a non-lawyer notary from selling blank legal forms, from typing legal forms completed by hand, from selling general printed legal information, or from selling their notarial services. [*] What they can not do is advise a client how to complete a legal form or make changes to documents completed by the client.

[*] Florida Bar vs. We the People Forms & Service Center of Sarasota, Inc., 883 So. 2d 1280 (Fla. 2004).

CONCLUSION:
Non-lawyers CAN provide blank legal forms, and I do have a stock of blank forms that I give out (Affidavit forms, QCD forms, Will forms). The non-lawyer simply can not explain the document or help a person fill it out. And, IMO, the notary can not help the customer pick a form either. The customer would have to specifically request a particular form from me.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 2/10/11 4:10pm
Msg #372243

ADVERTISING..."Here is the info on UPL that is from my book" n/m

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/10/11 8:02pm
Msg #372295

Cari, play nice....

It can't be advertising if he doesn't name the book or tell how to get it... And he did neither of these in his post.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 4/15/11 11:42am
Msg #379904

What, me not being nice? Unheard of?! LOL n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/10/11 8:37pm
Msg #372304

I don't know why my credentials bother you so much

You make a fuss about me being a Commissioner of Deeds, you make a fuss about me being a Certified Signing Agent, you make a fuss about me writing a book...

I don't know if you are jealous or if you are just trying to get others to dislike me. I've told you before, you are the only person that still insists on attacking me. Everyone else has moved on.

Enough already.

Reply by PAW on 2/10/11 2:20pm
Msg #372210

For personal reasons, not to be discussed here, my wife and I complete "proofs" every year. It is nothing more than an affidavit stating that we have guardianship and requires the court information to be filled in, especially the docket number. Since it is an affidavit, it required an oath and jurat. Banks and insurance companies should have the 'form' they want used. At least that's my experience. I've never had to create one and the ones we do are not the same among the different entities that are the recipients of the affidavits.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/10/11 4:02pm
Msg #372240

BECAUSE !!!!

<<<.......however, the question itself intrigued me. How is it possible that birth certificate does not provide proof for this situation.>>>

The birth certificate only names the EGG and SPERM donors - not who RAISES the child. If the Egg & Sperm donors are the same people who raise the child - then "mother" and "father" are the appropriate titles for them.

If Aunt Ethel raises the child because for whatever reason Egg and Sperm donor are not in the picture (i.e. passed away, deadbeats who are nowhere to be found, drug addicts unfit to raise a cat, etc.) she may have legal custody/guardianship over the child - thus Aunt Ethel is the "mother".

Interesting that adopted persons go on a search for the "real" parents. The REAL parents are the ones that DO THE JOB. The two people whose cells created them are the "biological" parents.

Reply by James Dawson on 2/10/11 5:16pm
Msg #372254

Re: BECAUSE !!!!

Don't forget the Dad and Mr. Mom scenario. LOL

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/10/11 7:54pm
Msg #372292

If the insurance co is requesting the form, they should be providing it. This doesn't sound like a common form, and it's certainly not your job to track it down; the person needed the notarization should appear before you with the form in hand.

You should suggest that she call the insurance company and tell them she would happy to comply if they would just send her the required form. Not your job, not your problem - this is not your monkey, so don't let them put it on your back...

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/10/11 8:45pm
Msg #372307

Salvador, you are not getting the whole story, I think.

**Has anybody heard of a proof of guardianship form. A customer informed that >>her<< life insurance company is requesting it for her claim.**

I am a little confused.

On the one hand, if this is HER insurance company and policy, I don't under why the insurance company would be asking for proof of guardianship of her children in order to set up a policy. You can name Jimmy Swaggart and Blanket Jackson as your beneficiaries if you please, as far as I know.

On the other hand, you said "claim" so I also wonder if you mean that mom is trying to make a claim on dad's or someone else's policy that named the kids as beneficiaries.

If the policy names the child/ren as beneficiary/ies my experience tells me that the money will not be paid out to the mother personally to spend on the children as she sees fit.

Assuming the deceased did not set up a vehicle to manage the funds for the minors, such as a trust and trustee, I suspect that a dependent guardianship will be established by the court, and the mom may or may not be appointed as guardian.

IF she is appointed guardian, she will be held accountable for funds spent from the guardianship accounts. She can spend the funds, but she will be required to either get prior permission, or do an annual accounting for the court to review and approve. An attorne ad litem will be appointed to look out for the kids' interests and so on, so forth.

Bottom line: Unless the policy names her as "trustee for the children" or something of that nature, I don't believe Mom is going to get the funds free and clear if the children are the beneficiaries. If she was named as trustee, she wouldn't need to prove guardianship.

So, I conclude that she's forgotten to mention a few details to you and heard the term, "proof of guardianship form" during a discussion with the insurance folks.

She's hoping that a notarized form will be a magic bullet to get those funds released to her personally. I am not besmirching her character as I know that a mom needs to get access to insurance funds, but she should have been named if they were to go directly to her for the sake of the kids. If that was the purpose of the insurance, somebody screwed up.

You didn't give us a lot of info, so I might have taken off in a totally wrong direction.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/10/11 9:24pm
Msg #372314

<<<<A customer informed that her life insurance company is requesting it for her claim. She is the birth mother of her children. I would think that the birth certificate be sufficient proof.>>>

In today's society where babies are casually born out of wedlock, and the grandparents or some other family member ends up raising the kid (or some other situation)....being the Egg donor is not enough. The insurance company wants PROOF that she is their "mother". In other words, they want proof that she is their primary care giver. MHO

Reply by Salvador Avalos on 2/11/11 12:51am
Msg #372325

The lady called me back again, her husband died two monthes ago, he had a life insurance. She is named the beneficiary and so are the kids. However, before they release payment they wanted proof of guardianship. (This topic came about during a signing). I informed her it was best to call the insurance company and have them send the form and if it needed to be notarized I would come out and perform the notarization required. She then called me back and informed me that the insurance company did not have this form, the form was available via court. Overall I learned a lot by posting the topic. LTK is correct just because you are the sperm or egg donor does not make you the guardian. I meet the lady I don't think she has bad intentions she looked like loving mother towards her children, her husband died of cancer and I felt compelled to help, but it is out of my control. Thank you all for your input.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/11/11 6:57am
Msg #372331

* the form was available via court*

Right. That's what I was saying.

This really has nothing to do with sperm/egg/parenting/birth certificates. The insurance is looking for a legal vehicle to manage assets for minors.

However, I would think that if she has an attorney he or she would get busy with the insurance folks to get her portion of the insurance funds.

He probably thought he was doing the right thing, but I can't believe that the husband didn't name her as the primary beneficiary, and the children as contingent beneficiaries. If there are three children and the policy is $100K, for instance, she will only have access to $25K and the rest will have to be put aside and monitored by the court until the kids reach majority.

What a mess.

Reply by PAW on 2/11/11 7:47am
Msg #372334

>>> She then called me back and informed me that the insurance company did not have this form, the form was available via court. <<<

As far as I know, the only document the court can provide is a certified copy of the guardianship order and/or a letter of appointment. I don't think there is a "form" indicating that a guardianship exists.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/11 2:45am
Msg #372478

*As far as I know, the only document the court can provide is a certified copy of the guardianship order and/or a letter of appointment. I don't think there is a "form" indicating that a guardianship exists.*

I agree, but you never know what people latch onto out of a conversation, or how an inexperienced insurance employee phrased it.

In Texas, the commonly accepted proof would be a letter of guardianship. (They expire after around 16 (?) months and will not be renewed until the guardian files an accounting, so there's a check/balance there. )

As I reflect on working with guardianships (although it might be a dated reference) I would say that there are various proof of guardianship "forms" which are basically customized form affidavits that the guardian signs under oath before a notary and an original/court issued letter of guardianship is attached to the form as an exhibit.

Overkill and tree-kill, of course. The letter should be good enough. Various brokerages, school districts, govt. braches, land men seeking to strike a deal with guardians for mineral interests on real property belonging to wards, businesses or financial institions have their operational procedures form books created by their very own productive in-house lawyers. While they are getting the letter of guardianship, tack a form affidavit on there and get a lot more information and a sworn statement that the person sitting in front of you is the one and only guardian mentioned in the official letter. You know that routine.

Again, my reference may be dated by a few years at this point, but back a few years ago, any company that had anything at all to do with a ward wants to start a file on them and the guardian.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/11/11 8:19am
Msg #372343

There is a difference between "guardian of the person" and

"guardian of the property".

In Florida, any funds over a certain amount intended to be given to a child have to go through a guardianship - and if its over that certain amount, the guardian can NOT be the child's relative.