Posted by GinaKY on 2/3/11 3:25pm
Msg #371438

Question - Minnesota Notaries

I have a question I have a signing and the wife is signing a POA for the husband. The husband is sending the POA directly to the title office. The notary does not want to sign the docs until she see s the POA. Sould the POA be of any concern to the notary, or is she just there to verify that the Mrs. was the person signing? Your thoughts?

Reply by Roger_OH on 2/3/11 4:25pm
Msg #371476

Not in MN, but...

Since the title co already has the POA and OK'd it, it's not something the notary needs to be concerned with. It's not our domain to determine if a POA is or isn't proper. The notary should proceed with signing the wife as attorney-in-fact.

Reply by Dennis_IN on 2/3/11 4:34pm
Msg #371479

I would verify w/ TC how the POA reads so

you will know how the names are to signed. Is it for example: John B Doe by Jane A Doe his Attorney in fact.

Reply by novyli/MN on 2/3/11 4:45pm
Msg #371485

Re: I would verify w/ TC how the POA reads so

What about this scenerio..The wife states that the POA is currently being signed by husband in another state....Who's to say it got done? Does the notary accept verbal from borrowers that POA has been submitted?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/3/11 5:27pm
Msg #371490

That's exactly what we have to do in FL

We take the signer's word that they have POA - we are not required to see it.

Do I like it? No....I'd rather at least be able to see that yes, they do have POA - but under these guidelines we can't refuse to notarize just because we don't see it - we have to take their word.

MN is silent on the issue - so if it's left to the notary's discretion I suppose they can insist on seeing it - I know I would. What I *wouldn't* do is make a determination that the POA applies to the transaction at hand. That, IMO, is UPL..

MHO

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/4/11 7:50am
Msg #371540

POA's

When a person uses their capacity as an agent, through a POA, to sign a document that they need notarized - the notary is identifying and acknowledging the signature of THE AGENT (or AIF). You are not identifying or acknowledging the Principal.

The area to be cautious in is with regard to your cert, and what it says and what your notarial law allows relative to capacity.

Joe Public, signing as AIF for Janet Public - JOE is the agent, JOE is (by his signature) presenting his capacity as an authorized agent acting within the laws.

You are notarizing the signature of Joe, you are confirming Joe's identity.

By even asking to examine the POA document, you are implying that you have the capacity to determine whether or not it is valid, legal, etc. Unless you are an attorney, you have no ability to make that determination - and again, you're not being ASKED to.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/11 8:11am
Msg #371543

Re: POA's

My personal opinion is all I want to do is see the POA and see that Person A appointed Person B (who's standing in front of me)...no more than that..no legal determination...terms in black and white, just like the terms of the note that we point out which are right in front of us.

To me, taking the word of the signer - well, people will say anything to accomplish what they need done. I'm not say ALL people lie (well, maybe I am), but I think that if we're supposed to notarize the signature of an AIF (and yes, the capacity goes in our certificates here) then it just makes sense that we see not only proof of identity but proof of that appointment.

MHO

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/4/11 8:21am
Msg #371545

I would want to see the original IF

instead of being the notary, I were instead the person taking some action as a result of the POA. For example, if I were buying a car and the seller was signing off on title using a POA.

With regard to being the notary (including the NSA end of things) - we're not enabling anyone to take actions based on our cert. The liability for any action (withdrawing money from an account, or encumbering/selling property) lies between the Agent, and the person or entity taking the action (bank, lender, title agent, etc). They have the Uniform Power of Attorney Act to guide them in their actions.

LOVE a good debate with a good buddy! =)

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/11 8:35am
Msg #371546

Re: I would want to see the original IF

Uniform Power of Attorney Act guides them but has no bearing on what's in our certificates - we're responsible for that and this is why it concerns me.

I'm stating in my cert "Jane Doe, AIF for John Doe" - how do I know? According to the FL SOS, I have to accept it because she said so...and I myself think this is a crack that security and identification falls through...if I can state she's AIF because she said so, why can't I state she's Jane Doe because she said so?? Maybe we should be completing our certs with the name of the person, no capacity.

Just me being suspicious and nitpicky again...

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/4/11 9:03am
Msg #371554

I agree with Renee'

on this one and your sos.

Reply by BobbiCT on 2/4/11 9:03am
Msg #371555

Excellent points Renee & Linda ..

For me, it DEPENDS on your state and what capacity you are acting in.

As a notary, I do not have to see the Power of Attorney, Trust Document, Executor's Appointment Certificate, corporate or member resolution that the person has the authority under the "title" s/he is signing as. Identify the INDIVIDUAL who is signing only, even though CT acknowledgments include the capacity ("as attorney-in-fact for Jane Doe) within the notarization block. I do keep a note in my journal as to capacity and whether the individual VOLUTARILY showed me an ORIGINAL PoA etc. Slippery slope going beyond my state-required notary powers leads to the question for the receiver or the lawyers involved, "Has this document been revoked prior to today?" and why, if I demanded to see the original, didn't I also demand proof the authority was still valid. (A good reason CT does NOT require the $5 notary who is not required to have a bond or E&O insurance to verify authority.)

Working with lawyers, underwriters and title insurance companies, I have a whole 'nother set of "prove it" and "verify it" standards and requirements. For example, at the time of signing a document also having the individual sign a detailed Affidavit (specific to powers and transaction at hand) that the power under which they are acting has not been revoked prior to the date s/he is signing the document. In CT and some other states, as a non-attorney, non-title insurance company employee, notary signing agent this is not, and should not be, within my scope of authority.

As stated, different rules for different states. Other states may require a notary to see proof of authority to sign. LOVE reading and learning here what notaries in other states have to deal with.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/4/11 10:13am
Msg #371562

Ah, see, that's the kicker, Linda ...

What you state in your cert matters much. When it comes to capacity - I PREFER to have nothing mentioned (just the name of the person who's signature I'm certifying) but I do run into issues with title agents sometimes. INVALID issues IME & O - but regardless, they will sometimes absolutely insist that the AIF verbiage of the signature line match my cert.

Unfortunately, I did in fact ONCE have a recorder bounce a mtg I did, because there was no mention of capacity (Trustee). I'd have loved to gone down there to the county office live & in-person to tackle THAT (Ok, please now tell me HOW I, as a notary, attest to their capacity as Trustee? Just tell me how I accomplish that?").

I will comply with their wishes by carefully constructing my cert - "Joe Doe, who stated his represented capacity as AIF for Jane Doe.." As long as there is NO implication that I, myself, am certifying anyone's capacity, authority, or title. NAME - I certify a person's identity <-period.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/4/11 10:14am
Msg #371563

geez, hope the grammar police are all out shoveling ... n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/4/11 10:22am
Msg #371564

I agree Renee..and that's my point...

but we have to follow our laws...which, in FL, state:

"It is not the notary‘s responsibility to ensure that the signer has power of attorney. The
person states he has that authority and indicates this fact when he signs - just accept his word....

Note the capacity of the signer in the notarial certificate." It then suggests the form.

"The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this (date) by (name of attorney in fact) as attorney in fact, who is personally known to me or who has produced (type of identification) as identification on behalf of (name of principal)."

Thank God I don't get many of these...

Reply by SharonMN on 2/4/11 10:58am
Msg #371565

Re: I would want to see the original IF

I agree with Renee. It's the job of the person/entity that wanted the signed & notarized doc in the first place to request supplemental documents if necessary. I do corporate governance work and this comes up all the time. A person can sign (and, in MN, have their signature notarized) as an Assistant Treasurer of Company X, but Company X's bank usually also requests a copy of the board resolution giving that person authority to sign bank documents.

Reply by PAW on 2/4/11 9:09am
Msg #371558

Re: POA's

>>> I think that if we're supposed to notarize the signature of an AIF (and yes, the capacity goes in our certificates here) then it just makes sense that we see not only proof of identity but proof of that appointment. <<<

In FL, when you enter the capacity of a signer, it is a **representative** capacity, not a proved capacity. Being it's representative, then the onus of proof lies with the signer, not with the notary.

You are only taking the acknowledgment of the signer, nothing more, nothing less. You proved the identification of the signer, that's it.