Posted by Claudine Osborne on 1/25/11 7:45pm
Msg #370069

I played nice

My husband and I had our own closing last night. The NSA that was called in was nice but she incorrectly notarized a document and had us initial a document that didnt need to be initialed.

On a POA/Correction agreement there was an Ack and a Jurat. She notarized both! I questioned her about this and she stated "The TC wants it this way" But I played nice..I know you cannot use both on the same document! It is one or the other!

On the Borrowers Aff..she had us inital all paragraphs..again I questioned her..Same answer "TC wants it this way"..Ummmm..I was nice and matter of fact about these errors..

Today I emailed the TC (I also work for this TC) sure enough she was incorrect on both documents!

I don't want to cause her any ill will..but if she's doing something incorrect whos responsibility is it to correct her?? She is listed on this site!

Reply by janCA on 1/25/11 8:00pm
Msg #370070

Over the years I have had certain documents that had a jurat and ack. Since a notary cannot choose which to use I do fill both certs out, document both in my journal and have the signer sign his/her name on each line item. The title company can then toss which one they don't want, if that is the case. I've never had a problem with this.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/25/11 8:01pm
Msg #370071

IMO - title's issue, not yours...

They hired her and it's their work she's doing wrong - it's up to them to correct her, not you. You've alerted them to the fact and they'll have the docs in hand also showing this. As long as it doesn't affect your funding, then let them handle it.

MHO

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/25/11 8:13pm
Msg #370072

Re: IMO - title's issue, not yours...

Of course I know its not up to me to handle this! I will not persue this in any way..this was just for discussion..It will not affect funding.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/25/11 8:17pm
Msg #370074

Okay..Claudine..I'm sorry

You said "I don't want to cause her any ill will..but if she's doing something incorrect whos responsibility is it to correct her??"

I thought that's what you were asking...apologies.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/25/11 8:19pm
Msg #370076

Re: Okay..Claudine..I'm sorry

Thanks Linda! No biggie!

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 1/25/11 8:22pm
Msg #370077

You played nice??

So, let me get this straight, you emailed the TC to tell them that the notary made you initial a few paragraphs and notarized a jurat and an acknowledgement for a single doc, even though the type of certificate used is not up to us to decide??
Maybe you should notify the SOS, too!

Reply by Cari on 1/25/11 8:24pm
Msg #370078

Claudine, tell her because TC won't as I am sure they will

opt NOT to use her services any longer (unless she is one of those low baller NSAs).

I would want to know if I did something wrong, I mean I'm not perfect (okay there I admitted it), but more importantly I do NOT want to be held liable financially for my mistakes.

Do you know how long she has been working as an NSA??

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/25/11 8:30pm
Msg #370080

Re: Claudine, tell her because TC won't as I am sure they will

I did NOT alert the TC that she made a mistake! I wanted to hear from the TC on how they wanted that document notarized..Just in case I was making a mistake..thats all!

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 1/25/11 8:54pm
Msg #370088

If that's the case, then my apologies.

That was the impression I got from the last paragraph of your post.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/25/11 9:04pm
Msg #370091

Re: If that's the case, then my apologies.

Thanks Donna!

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/25/11 9:07pm
Msg #370092

Re: Claudine, tell her because TC won't as I am sure they will

I think I know which company you are referring to. What did they say about the POA/Correction agreement? Which certificate do they want completed - the ack or the jurat? As I recall they are both on the same page, one right after the other.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/25/11 9:09pm
Msg #370093

Unless Ohio has some special law that I don't know...

There is NO reason a notary can't complete two certificates for the same document. There are instances when both acts actually should be completed on the same doc.

I don't see the issue here...

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/25/11 9:47pm
Msg #370095

More than once I have been instructed to complete BOTH an

Ack and jurat for the same document! I dont think the notary was wrong unless in some states it is not acceptable.

Reply by John Schenk on 1/25/11 10:18pm
Msg #370096

Ack and Jurat on one doc...I've been told to do both.

I certainly see no problem in notarizing both within one doc. Unless you call title on each of those docs, and often there are a number of them that have both an ack and jurat, how should we decide which one to use? Does one use the acknowledgment acknowledging witnessing their siggy, or the jurat with the higher standard of being both sworn and acknowledged before the notary? Is that my call to personally make? As for me, NO, and I don't call title after going through all the docs and do a line by line as to which they want me to use. Evidently counsel put them both in there and, personally, I stamp them both and swear them to the jurat. I have NEVER had them come back and complain that I notarized both. Also I don't have to get into a discussion with title, which often times you don't have time to jack with, over which to use. After the discussion, I'd then have to document that discussion with an email, or do it by email, so I have a written directive to notarize one or the other to cover my butt since I would be leaving on or the other not notarized. I, personally, don't want to be in that situation. It takes time, and I think gives me exposure that I don't want to be exposed to. I'd have to do that on virtually every loan, and that just isn't in my playbook. I wish I could make the call...jurat or acknowledgment. Don't think I can do that without J.D. after my name, but that's JMLO.

JMLO IF I were to choose one over the other it would obviously be using the jurat, but that's not my call to make. I'll keep doing both acks and jurats on the docs those are present within one doc...whether they be separated on different pages or all on the same page one right after the other. Yah, it's overkill, but that's no reason to ever have it kicked back, IMLO.

Just my .02.

JJ

Reply by John Schenk on 1/25/11 10:20pm
Msg #370097

Correction

actually that should state "sworn and subscribed before the notary?" Just correcting so no big language discussion. One is an ack and one is a jurat...I stamp both.

JJ

Reply by Donna McDaniel on 1/25/11 10:21pm
Msg #370098

Curious, what was LSI's answer to the question? n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 1/25/11 10:48pm
Msg #370101

Attorneys often draw docs with both acknowledgment & jurat

I don't see the issue. The absolute worst is that one would be regarded as what lawyers call "surplusage," which is basically like a meat extender (for those of you who've been following the news: Hello, Taco Bell!) -- it doesn't add anything to the quality, just to the bulk. There may, in fact, be documents where both would be appropriate, even if not required, as Robert noted. It's a bit like wearing suspenders <and> a belt.

I have a couple of clients whose lawyers draw docs like that. Exasperating and time-consuming, but not necessarily legally incorrect.

A couple of years ago, in fact, PAW and I had a discussion in this forum about whether a jurat could be combined with an acknowledgment in the same certification, something else I have seen on occasion. PAW, purist that he is, nearly ruptured his spleen and at least one kidney in consternation at the thought. I, impure provocateur that I am, kept hoping for a trifecta and that he would also rupture the gall bladder. Fortunately for both this forum and PAW's insuror, he remained anatomically whole. Unfortunately, perhaps, the discussion in no way diminished my impurity. I still don't see the problem.

Reply by John Schenk on 1/25/11 11:19pm
Msg #370102

Re: Attorneys often draw docs with both acknowledgment & jurat

Agree, although I express no thoughts on PAWs physical girations. LOL

JJ

Reply by PAW on 1/26/11 7:22am
Msg #370110

Re: Attorneys often draw docs with both acknowledgment & jurat

IIRC (and no guarantee that I do), what you (Hugh) and I discussed was a 'hybrid' certificate wherein both language for an acknowledgment and oath (jurat) were included. The Florida SOS Notary Section has stated the requirements for notary certificates. The required elements include the type of notarial act performed whether you administered an oath to the document signer **or** took his or her acknowledgment (look for the key words "sworn to" or "acknowledged"). Both notarial acts cannot be combined into one certificate. (One certificate per notarial act.)

However, in this case, it is that the document has TWO separate and distinct notarial certificates; an acknowledgment and a jurat, indicating that there are two separate and distinct acts; taking an acknowledgment and giving an oath or affirmation.

So, in this case, I agree that there is no issue. Each act has its own purpose and the document originator wants both purposes satisfied.

Reply by James Dawson on 1/26/11 12:38am
Msg #370103

I have a saying, If you know how to do it correctly, why would you do it incorrectly? I would have wanted to know if I did it incorrectly.

How would I correct that person? I would have found the information, Handbook or whatever information available showing/stating the correct way. I would have attached a sample of the way she did it and the way it was suppose to be done. I would have explained to her the value of the networking with other notaries, the forum (for answers) and constructive criticism. Then I would send it to her (snailmail if possible ) with my business card.

If you know how to do it correctly, you won't ever do it the wrong way. My .02

Reply by HisHughness on 1/26/11 1:36am
Msg #370105

***If you know how to do it correctly, you won't ever do it the wrong way.***

Hmmmmm.....I'm thinking of some of my more amorous moments.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/26/11 8:27am
Msg #370118

I don't know that I would have handled it that way. What's with this concept of "playing nice"?
We're not in kindergarten. It's always easy to view a situation we're not in, but I think I would have shared some info with her as a professional courtesy. Also, you were the one's signing the docs & didn't have to sign anything you didn't feel comfortable with.
IMO we all have a "technique" for signings. I'm sure there would be those that could "critique" my methods, but I do what works for me.

Reply by Larry/IL on 1/26/11 9:22am
Msg #370123

Want to know it all? Be perfect?

Many on this forum have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express......disclaimer; This is not to be taken as advertisement, as I have never stayed at a one,or have any ownership in one. I also do not know it all and always interested in sharing and helping like minded individuals.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/26/11 11:41am
Msg #370157

Re: Want to know it all? Be perfect?

I really do not like the reference to being a know it all, perfect and the reference that we are not in kindergarten!

I do not know it all or ever claimed to be perfect. I titled my post as I played nice (as I always do) just a title..nothing more to it than that.

I feel that my post was misinterpreted by some as more that what it was..A question about these documents execution! I know that I should not have signed it if I had an issue with it..which I don't! If I had an issue I have a recession period to take care of issues.

I emailed the TC only to see how they want us to handle this for my personal knowledge! I received a reply that we are to use the one worded correctly for our state and not to fill out both and the other document the paragraph does not need to be initialed. The notary told me that the TC wanted these doc executed this way!

My intent was not to make an issue of this or hurt the notary in any way! If someone took it that way Im sorry!

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/26/11 12:58pm
Msg #370164

Claudine, the bottom line is you were wrong

There is nothing wrong with using two separate certificates on the same document. If the Title Company told you that you need to choose between the ack. and the jurat, well then they are asking you to break the law. If a document has both an ack. and a jurat, then both need to be filled out.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/26/11 2:16pm
Msg #370176

It was not my intent to offend you or anyone else, Claudine.

You've been around here for a long time. This opened a dialogue for discussion, that's all.
Some take a view that they wouldn't do anything to help the competition, and some of us feel that anything that improves the industry helps us all. I also have received quite a few docs with both acks & jurats on them. Since I'm not allowed by law to choose, I complete them both. Again, you're the one that knows the Ohio notary laws.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/26/11 2:07pm
Msg #370173

Disagree on this point, Claudine...

*On a POA/Correction agreement there was an Ack and a Jurat. She notarized both! I questioned her about this and she stated "The TC wants it this way" But I played nice..I know you cannot use both on the same document! It is one or the other!*

There is no law that you can't.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/26/11 3:39pm
Msg #370193

Oops...now I see that several had replied.

Sorry. Just now reading all the replies.

Reply by Tish/CA on 1/26/11 3:59pm
Msg #370197

Re: Oops...now I see that several had replied.

This sounds like an LSI doc. I questioned them months ago when they first started including both certs on their Ltd POA agmt. I was instructed to fill out both. That's what I did and continue to do. it's never been and issue. But my question is, she stated Title instructed her to fill out both certs and to initial whatever paragraph it was, how do you know they didn't instruct her??

Reply by suehere on 1/26/11 8:41pm
Msg #370208

I've been closing for TC for 4 yrs. with no issues. UMMM, didn't you say you don't work for that TC.... I also checked and there were no issues with the closing package. Sorry if your offended I didn't do it your way. I knew as did others you would be critiquing my work, that's ok, I hold no ill feelings.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/26/11 9:35pm
Msg #370214

Re:My Apologies to Sue!

Sue I sincerely apologize to you if I offened you in any way! You did a wonderful job with our closing and I would reccommend you anytime!

Yes I do work with the same TC!

Reply by suehere on 1/27/11 7:19am
Msg #370231

Re: Re:My Apologies to Sue!

It's all good! I just think it would of been better handled if we called TC while I was there if there was an issue. Seriously though, I really have never had any complaints from TC on my closings with them. Maybe each EO is different??? Be careful out there today, looks like it's gonna be a slippery one.