Posted by FlaNotary2 on 7/5/11 12:00pm
Msg #388603

Fla. notaries: Opinions please

As you know, we are required to be commissioned in the name in which we sign our names. However, I recently came across a notary whose seal had her full middle name, and her signature had only her first and last name. I asked her how she signed her application, and she said that she signed it with only her first and last name. I have seen various incidents where if a person puts their full name on the top of the application form (which is fine, as long as the printed name under the signature reflects the actual signature), Notary Public Underwriters will put the full name on the seal, even if different from the printed name under the signature.

How can this be rectified? Her official signature is "Mary Doe", but her commissioned name is "Mary Jane Doe". Should she request an amended commission? What are her options?

I always have my students fill out the name the same way on all their paperwork, and it has to match their signatrue.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/5/11 12:04pm
Msg #388604

Well, since the manual says..

"You must sign notarial certificates in your commissioned name, and your notary seal
must bear that name. No variation from the commissioned name is permitted."

it's my guess that if this notary is going to continue to sign her name without the middle name she has one of two options....(a) change her attitude and start signing her name in accordance with her commission; or (b) amend her commission.

MHO

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 7/5/11 12:09pm
Msg #388606

The problem is that the law also requires that the notary

sign their OFFICIAL signature when notarizing. The official signature is the one on the application. Her signature on the application is Mary Doe. The problem, IMO, is the commission - not her signature.

But as for amending a commission - I have no idea how that is accomplished or what the procedure is.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/5/11 12:20pm
Msg #388611

A FL notary is supposed to sign their commissioned name

now if she didn't want to do that she should not have put a middle name on the application.

But she did...and IMO someone missed that at the bonding agency and/or at the SOS office. In any event, she either needs to start signing properly (as commissioned) or amend her commission..and it's my guess she'd have to follow the procedure for a Change of Name:

"Changing Name During Term of Notary Commission

Any notary public who lawfully changes his name during the term of the commission must request an amended commission from one of the bonding agencies that has been approved by submitting

a completed notice of name change form (DS-DE 77A)
current commission
rider to current notary public bond
$25 check or money order (payable to Department of State)
A notice of name change form must be sent to the Division via electronic transfer.

Note: Once an amended commission has been requested, the notary public may continue to perform notarial acts in his former name until the amended commission is received"

http://notaries.dos.state.fl.us/notary.html

IMO technically she's changing her commissioned name...so I think this applies. She may try writing to them and see if they'll do an amendment dropping the middle name to conform with her signature but I think she's probably best off just doing the amendment through her bonding company.

JMO

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/5/11 3:30pm
Msg #388626

Motivation to do it: If she does not, then any of her

notarizations that go to the SoS office for authentication will probably be returned.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/5/11 7:25pm
Msg #388657

What about signature? Have we not discussed this over and

over again? Is my signature not my signature?

If my name is Daisy M. Duck and I sign DDuck on everything, and my historical signature is DDuck then how all of a sudden should I have to sign one item alone differently? If I apply for my commission as Daisy M. Duck and sign my DDuck, historical signature, the one that sets me apart for any other, and it is accepted as such by all parties, why all of a sudden is it anyone's concern? And what if my signature is a scrawl? Am I supposed to neaten it up for the signature police?

Reply by jba/fl on 7/5/11 8:06pm
Msg #388666

Re: Motivation to do it: If she does not, then any of her

If the SoS office were to authenticate my signature (we are back to DDuck aka Daisy M Duck) wouldn't they pull the file that actually shows my signature? Otherwise, they would be authenticating what they believe my signature to be, not the actual signature. Agree?

Reply by Cari on 7/6/11 12:54pm
Msg #388750

Linda, I've not read the rest of the posts...but WHY can't

she just have the folks who made her stamp, fix it the right way as is required in FL?

seems it would be a huge PITA to amend her commission...and btw, why does she have to change her attitude?? I didn't get any hostility from that one notary from Robert's post??

Reply by Cari on 7/6/11 12:56pm
Msg #388753

well just re-read the OP post...sorry thought it was a stamp

issue...

I think she should contact the bonding company and get this corrected in accordance to FL notary laws...MHO...

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/6/11 5:35am
Msg #388700

A signature is a mark ...

Buried in my past is tons of research & legal opinion (obtained, not given!), not re-researching now in order to source...so, my opinion is that a signature is a mark - to be considered in its entirety, like a picture - not as 'text'.

Here is the logical arguement for that opinion: If a signature is to be read like text, then you are saying all rules for dictating how a person signs their name ONLY APPLY to those who present a legible, readable signature. It would seem obvious that nobody would write a law saying such a thing.

In Robert's scenario, had the notary who was commissioned as "Mary Jane Doe" signed her name in an illegible scrawl ...there would be no posting of it, no questioning of it. The only reason it made N/R news is because the 'mark' was legible or readable.

How would such a law be worded? "If a signature can be read as text, then it must contain all of the components of the person's name in a legible & readable manner; if a signature can not be legibly deciphered, then all bets are off and they are free to go."??

Reply by MichiganAl on 7/6/11 9:34am
Msg #388719

Re: A signature is a mark ...

Well, that's pretty much how most of us handle loan signings. Instructions almost always state borrower must sign their name as it appears, Mary Jane Doe must sign Mary Jane Doe, not Mary Doe or Mary D. Doe. However, if it's completely illegible, then who's to argue? All bets are off. Now I'm not saying you're WRONG about your opinion that your signature is your mark. I think you're absolutely right. But try telling that to your hiring entity. Or in this case, to the SoS. I think it has to match or else you're just begging for a can of trouble.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/7/11 6:41am
Msg #388845

Re: A signature is a mark ...

"I think it has to match or else you're just begging for a can of trouble. "

Match what? The signature on the DL?

I operate on the premise that Daisy D Duck on DL is her identity but she signs DDuck in the signature space. Whatever she signs today in front of me should match the signature on her ID, in this case, the DL. Then I don't care what the loan company calls her on the paperwork (Daisy D. Duck, Daisy Duck, D. Duck, D. D. Duck) if she is consistently signing DDuck as that is her mark - her text - her signature until she changes it if she does.

I don't know if I am fortunate or ?? but I have not had questions, ever, by anyone, if the signature matches the IDs, legible or scrawl.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 7/6/11 10:33am
Msg #388727

The issue here is that the law says that a notary must

sign using the name on his or her commission. However, the commission is supposed to match how the notary intends to sign - not the other way around. The bonding company screwed up - and I think that this particular bonding agency does this a lot.

However, our law also requires that the notary sign using the signature on his application. In this case, the notary can not comply with one law without violating the other. I wish I had an answer for this notary. Maybe a call to the SOS...

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/6/11 3:57pm
Msg #388779

The issue here is how does the law define "sign"?

Robert, you're the perfect person for this chewy topic - but I feel like you're missing my point?

The notarial law says you must "sign" using the name on your commission.

The notarial law isn't defining what is or is not a "signature".

In any laws I've ever read that DO define "signature", it includes methods of affixing, but NEVER have I managed to find a single law spelling out what TEXT must be included.

Going back to my logical arguement - how COULD there be a law that essentially says "your mark/signature must LOOK like this, but ONLY if it is legible. Otherwise, the law does not apply. This law only applies to signatures that can be read." How subjective is that?

You love law ....as do I. Go hunt something down. =)

@ Alex - loan docs & what the proprietary person might want/not want isn't the question, that's a whole other ballgame, granted!

Reply by MichiganAl on 7/7/11 12:22am
Msg #388832

Re: The issue here is how does the law define "sign"?

I know it's a whole other ballgame. But the point is the same. You'll never convince anyone at the SoS that what is or isn't a signature isn't defined in notarial law and signing using your name doesn't have to mean the text has to match. Come on, you know exactly what will happen. Blank stare, followed by slight annoyance, followed by the sentence "well, we've always done it this way."

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/7/11 5:38am
Msg #388837

Right, but I doubt Robert would accept that answer!

The MI Dept of State's directive to me on a pretty similar issue (from the legal eagles, took me 5 mos to get - remember?) is below - I'm hoping Robert is motivated & snagged enough to chase down a written directive to his specific scenario.

I'd posed this question: A person presents a D/L for identification purposes, it displays the name "Barry Snow", but the signature legibly reads "Buster Snow". I wanted to know - definitively - if it was acceptable as ID.

Their response was that the D/L as described IS allowable "as the principal component" for establishing identity.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/7/11 6:46am
Msg #388846

Re: Right, but I doubt Robert would accept that answer!

And Buster would be one of those people who would state that he would know if someone else signed his name and could prove it as he never signs Barry - "just look at my ID's".