Posted by Pam Bridges on 7/5/11 3:25pm
Msg #388625

No longer closing at borrower's home

I don't know if anyone else has had this problem, but this has happened three times to me and I am to the point to where I am having panic attacks going to the borrowers home.

This last incident has done me in. I was at the borrowers home and first thing I do is let them look over their settlement statement and payment statement. This time it happened to be way off from what they expected. So immediately they are furious, since I have been in this situation before, I told them they did not have to sign and we would call the title company and/or their loan officer and see why the numbers were so different than they were quoted. Unfornately, the man was the type that was extremely hot headed and would not calm down, I started to gather my things and bow out gracefully and call the title company from the car, because the man was beyond beligurent. He was being extremely verbally abusive and shouting, his wife just sat there as he grabbed my briefcase and told me I needed to sit down and explain to him why the numbers were differnt, this went on for several mins before I was able to make my escape.

If this was a one time thing, I probably would not mention this but this has happened three times, with one incidence being a single man and me, alone at his home in the boonies, and him thinking he is Mr. Stud.

I understand title companies want to make the closing convenient for the borrowers, etc., but I've decided if they don't want to meet in a public place, where we can take a table in the corner for privacy, I won't do the closings anymore.

It really upsets me that I am hindered in doing a job a like doing, because of a few "strange" people. But enough is enough.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 7/5/11 3:44pm
Msg #388627

Pam, the first thing I do before I even open my briefcase is to explain my role in the transaction. I also state where questions on the figures need to be directed. I also explain that if any questions come up during the loan signing, we will get the loan officer on the phone to explain before we proceed any farther.

I can't respond to the other issue as I am a tall, 250 pound old guy.

Bottom line is, you must do what you have to do to be safe. No one expects you to put your life on the line.

Reply by Buddy Young on 7/5/11 3:44pm
Msg #388628

Pam, What lender was the signing for?

Reply by Les_CO on 7/5/11 3:53pm
Msg #388629

I would say that you are in the wrong business. Some are well suited to do what we do…some are not. You MUST be able to TAKE CHARGE of and CONTROAL the signing. There are many ways to do this, and it depends on the immediate situation, and how the signers perceive you, and you them. I for one think that to do this job seamlessly one needs some direct sales experience, and some strong self worth. You can’t be a wimp. (let them control you…(these figures are bullshit!) and you can’t be a rude bully (sign this NOW! I’m packin my 38, so if you get out of line I shoot first, and if you’re not bleedin to bad ask you to sign with the other hand) Yes, to do this job you may have to go into some scary places, and deal with some questionable people. It’s ALWAYS better to say no and back away than put yourself in harm’s way. But that's half the fun of it too. Dealing with interesting people. We in todays market sure ain't in it for the money! JMO

Reply by SueW/Tn on 7/5/11 4:05pm
Msg #388632

I think Les hit the nail on the head regarding taking control. I too am in Tennessee and have done some assignments in areas that even I couldn't believe! I've done hundreds of assignments and have never had one situation as was described, THREE would make me rethink my choices. It's all in how the BO's perceive you and your reason for being there, of course many have been upset over the final numbers BUT that's when you must take the lead being firm and confident. Of course in today's market with so much desperation one needs to be "picky" about the assignments they accept, IMHO.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/5/11 9:06pm
Msg #388672

Great post, Les. IMO this is one thing that many in this

industry do not understand. I'm not a control-freak, but I control every signing from beginning to end. I have many borrowers comment on how efficiently & professionally I handled their signing. I have a job to do & that's what I'm there for. I keep the docs in front of me at all times, give a brief explanation of each doc & hand it to them for signature. It's a system that has worked very well for me. If a question comes up regarding the nos., I will explain their options. First, of course, is to have them call the LO. I've had many situations where the nos. on the HUD weren't what the borrowers expected, but the loan amt., interest rate, etc. were correct. There's no reason to abort a signing just because there have been situations where the HUD is revised & provided to them during the RTC period.
I've had very few situations that were threatening, but if that would occur I would simply state that unless there was an attitude adjustment (I don't put up with abuse from anyone!) I would be leaving.
Just adding my .02 to all the sage advice already posted.

Reply by Barney on 7/5/11 10:09pm
Msg #388680

Les, I could tell you were from CO- Carry protection Woman

I am a Texas girl and very layed back, but I agree you should carry protection at all times. I too had a scary expierence about (8 years) ago, in the boonies with some bad, bad long haired duds, broken cars in the front yard they were part of a motorcycle gang about evening time. I was scared but went in anyway only because I had protection on me. You never know even if the house is nice. What happens if you break down in your car on the dark lonely road. Get you concealed to carry if you live in Texas. Ask anyone who has been attacked.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 7/6/11 3:52pm
Msg #388777

Re: Unless Les had a sex change operation ... n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 7/6/11 5:08pm
Msg #388795

This does NOT belong here

***Get you concealed to carry if you live in Texas.***

And then you, too, can contribute to the 30,000 gun deaths this country experiences every year, nearly 200 of whom are toddlers.

This is not a topic that is appropriate for DW. Accounts of how signing agents handled situations are entirely appropriate, even if they involve firearms. It is a large step from that, however, to advocating that everyone obtain a permit to carry a handgun. Lots of Americans -- and lots of Texans, for that matter -- find the Wild West attitude reprehensible.

Move it to JPol, please.

Fair warning: This is a responsive post. The initial poster advocated for firearms; I balanced that with an opposing post. <For this forum>, the subject should be closed. It now belongs in JPol. If there are further posts supporting one side or the other. this thread is going to go to hell in a handbasket. Please, move it to JPol.

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/5/11 4:02pm
Msg #388630

I give a travel discount if the TC can get BO to meet

in a public location for this reason.

In rural OK people disappear...

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/5/11 4:41pm
Msg #388636

Les and SueW are right on, you have got to be in charge from the beginning no matter who/what they are. I often start out where borrowers doubt my ability to add two plus two but in the end, they thank me for coming. Control begins with your confirmation call. IMO

Reply by Les_CO on 7/5/11 4:52pm
Msg #388637

The voice of experience! It dosn't hurt to be a little bit savy. JMO

Reply by A S Johnson on 7/5/11 4:52pm
Msg #388638

You are who has hindered doing your job. Really you don't know what your job is or how to do it.
You are the Notary and a Tennessee State Official. It is your position to conduct the signing and know how to take control.

The way I do it is this:
"As I introduced myself on the phone, I am Sid Johnson, a Notary commissioned by the State of Texas. I am here to do two things; 1) to ID you and 2) to watch you sign these documents.
You are ___________ and you live at ___________________ and your ID expires in _______, and you are ________________ you also live at_________________and your ID expires __________.
Before we begin, I need to ask you after review, are you signing these documents of your own free will ( I need a verbal response). Several of these documents require a sworn statement, will you raise your right hand (I raise mine so the signer will follow). Do you swear that the statements, facts and representations you are signing are the truth, so help you GOD"? (I need a verbal resopnse).
In almost 12 years and 2500+ signings, I have had only two balk at the sworn statement. I credit it to not giving the signers an opportuntity to object. I am NOT asking, I am being postive in telling them this is necessary and I let them know I am in control by my actions.

I do remember my first 2 years as a Notary, when I was not sure of what I was doing, I did have some problems. This even happened some at first when I started doing signings in May 2000 (yes, my first signing was for FASS).
It is important you project confidence - this is my job and I know what I'm doing.

To me, another important thing in being in control is I show the HUD, explaining, I will be handing you these docs and giving you factual explanations. As an example, this is the HUD, Settlement Statement, it lists the monies and what will happen to them at funding. When I hand it to you in a couple of minutes, please review it and make sure you are comfortable with it. If you need to ask any questions, please ask. There are questions I can answer and some I cannot as I do not have the back information to answer correctly. If I can answer, you have a 3 day RTC to get the answer or you can cancel. We can try to call your Lo for the answer. When you are signing, PLEASE sign exactly as printed below the signature line. This is very important.

Now, lets start!
1) Get the ID docs taken care of.
2) RTC and the borrower's copies. At this time, I explain I will put their copies with their copy of the docs when we finish with the signing.
3) TIL
4) Itemization of Amount Financed
5) First payment and coupons
6) Note. I do point out, a notary in Texas must not call out numbers, they are considered opinions not facts, the Interest.
7) Dot/Mortgage/ Security Instrument
8) Riders
9) Rest of the docs.

At any question, I remind them of the RTC and ask if they want to call their LO. If they don't have the LO's number, then I ask them to call who they have been talking with. Finally, as a last resort, I'll call the Escrow Officer.

I pull the above-mentioned documents and put them in the order I've listed, unless specifically instructed to leave the packet in the order received.

And, finally, to prevent your discomfort in some signing situations - find out before you go if the borrowers are single, married, live in the boonies, etc. If you are afraid, then either turn down the signing or suggest meeting the borrower(s) in a nearby public location.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/5/11 5:07pm
Msg #388639

Usually these people have been waiting weeks/months for you to arrive. They WANT what you have in your hand! All you have to do is walk-em-through-it. Be respectful, be polite, be considerate, be thorough, and be gone.

Reply by Grammyzoom on 7/5/11 5:39pm
Msg #388648

2 cents

As notarysigner James can attest, the first thing I teach my students is the importance of taking control of the signings. This begins at the door, directing people where to sit and in the most gentle but confident way, takes the control out of the hands of the signers and lets them know you know what you are doing.
However, that being said, I feel the need to defend Pam. There are some situations that cannot be controlled and one of them is a woman alone with a maniac. My suggestion if you are dealing with someone who has lost their temper and you are actually fearful for your well being, is to get the hell out of the situation as fast as you can and let the loan officer deal with his borrower.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/5/11 9:02pm
Msg #388670

Re: 2 cents

"However, that being said, I feel the need to defend Pam. "

Are we the 2 lone voices in the wilderness here Carole? In 9 years I have had 2 violent reactions where I was scared and had to leave, although one was insisting that I stay.

No, I don't stay for that, and I don't return the next day or whenever that person decides to get their act together. No.

Notice, all the big guys at 200+ pounds, one even with a gun. Then a couple of ladies decide to weigh in behind them - whoop de doo! Until you are faced with this actual situation and you don't know if they are on drugs, meds gone wrong, drinking a lot, combo of the aforementioned, PO'ed at the world, if this is their normal way of handling things, it really does not matter what your skill level and/or customer service level is. Just leave. Quickly. I always wear pants with pockets and in one pocket is my phone which I can dial 911 with one hand in my pocket and the other has my smart key that I don't have to put in my door and slow myself down.

Then again, this just may not be a business for you. I have been known to be wrong.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/5/11 5:49pm
Msg #388651

Agree with Glen...

<<<Pam, the first thing I do before I even open my briefcase is to explain my role in the transaction. I also state where questions on the figures need to be directed. I also explain that if any questions come up during the loan signing, we will get the loan officer on the phone to explain before we proceed any farther.>>>

To add: I tell the borrowers that I am seeing their documents for the FIRST TIME - I do not work for the lender, title or escrow. I have no knowledge of the conversations that took place between said mentioned parties, therefore, the person with whom you've worked with from the beginning of the application process is the LOAN OFFICER and he or she is the person that can answer the WHYs of your concerns.

I also agree with taking charge of the signing and being in control of the situation. It's also a good idea to ask - during the initial appointment confirmation call - if the borrowers have spoken to their loan officer regarding the numbers and is everyone on the same page? I'd encourage the borrower to call their loan officer and request a preliminary HUD copy for review before the Notary arrives to witness signatures.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/5/11 5:49pm
Msg #388652

Oopsie - Agree with GlenN n/m

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 7/5/11 6:55pm
Msg #388655

**as he grabbed my briefcase and told me I needed to sit down**

I don't understand how he was able to grab your briefcase. Whenever entering a house, the first thing I do is check where the doors (exits) are. I keep my keys in my lap and I carry pepper spray in my briefcase. I have NEVER had a reason to get out quickly or to use the pepper spray. I have never had anyone grab my briefcase and tell me I needed to sit back down. I have been in charge and control of every signing I ever did -- not the other way around. I hate to break it to you, but if you are having this much trouble with the signings in the BOs house, meeting in a public place, at a table in the corner for privacy, will be no different.

As others have said, this job isn't for everyone -- and since you have had basically the same thing happen three times, it might be time for you to look into doing something else.

Reply by Frank Carpentier on 7/5/11 8:29pm
Msg #388667

We deal with many different people and many different personalities. The one important thing when we close on these loans is to know every document inside out and always be in control of the entire closing. Before they sign anything I review all the terms of the loan with the borrower and if there is any issue at all we contact who ever we must to resolve it. Never let the borrower take control or allow him/her to think you do not know what you are doing or do not know your job. Unfortunately we deal with some people who are nasty or abusive but in those cases I immediately let them know that I am in control of the closing and I don't tolerate any abusive behavior. Then again there are a few people that no matter what you do, they are intolerable and then you have to leave. You have to earn the respect of most people immediately by your demeanor and this in itself discourages a lot of their abusive behavior.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 7/5/11 8:50pm
Msg #388668

I'm sorry but you lost control of this signing..

I'm glad it didn't go from bad to worse but he did this to you because you allowed him to. If nothing else, I would have threatened to call 911 if he didn't let go of my brief case and allow me to leave the home immediately. Heck, in today's tech world I would have used my cell phone to videotape the whole incident and insist that SS still pay me. Don't give up on what you do and don't be a pushed around, stay in control.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/5/11 9:04pm
Msg #388671

Five Stars, BossLady. Bullying is just never allowed.

Spouses-spatting, depending, is either easily re-focused, or a no-sign.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/5/11 9:48pm
Msg #388675

I think you might want to look into assertiveness training, because it appears to be something you're lacking right now. Not necessarily a bad thing, and it can be fixed, but you really do need to be assertive (not aggressive) in these situations - otherwise, these whack jobs will eat you up and spit you out...

If you're not willing or able to be assertive, then you're probably in the wrong job.

In the meantime, make sure your cell phone is programed to dial 911 with the push of a single button, and don't be afraid to use it if the need arises. I'm 6'4" and over 200 lbs, so I don't think I would be challenged by too many people, but I would not hesitate to hit that button and call 911 if I thought I was in a bad situation.

Reply by Pam Bridges on 7/5/11 10:44pm
Msg #388685

Thank you jba/fl!!!

Thank you! And you are right unless you are faced with this situation it's easy to give advice.

I have done this job for 7 years, and a REALTOR 10 years. To all the "know it alls" I didn't say these three incidents happened in one week, they have happened over the past 2 years. I don't know if it's the economy and they are stressed and when their numbers are not what they are told they are going to be, sets them off. Can't help some long haired red neck is having a party with 5 other rednecks when I arrive and think they are all sex gods. Even Google couldn't have foreseen that one. It's not that I don't introduce myself correctly, or I'm not in control, I know how to do my job. It's that you never know what you're walking into anymore. Since I went to the police after this last closing, they suggested to meet in public places, since most people are a little more in control when in public.

My post was more of a "beware" to other notaries, just be careful, because you just never know whose home you going to. Because no matter how much control you think you have, something can always take that control away.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/6/11 12:53am
Msg #388690

One minute you're in control, the next .....

I wish every newbie could read all the tips/advice from the pros here about how to take control of a signing. This is invaluable stuff!

On the other hand, I read a whole lot of "blame the victim" in these remarks. To conclude that a weak, sniveling Pam should get out of the business because she's not cut out for the rough world of knocking on strangers' doors and easing even the most beligerent knucklehead seamlessly through a signing seems to me way out of line.

I have no dog in this fight, as Susan Fisher has often said. But the posters who seem to think it was all Pam's fault is shocking to me. I can easily see how an enraged borrower can get out of hand. Granted, they might get out of hand alot faster with a notary who hadn't taken control of the signing right off, but eventually ... you just never know. I have never had any of Pam's experiences, tho I have been frightened (perhaps needlessly) at a couple of signings that were dominated by out of control alpha males high on testosterone and ego. Actually, the scariest signing by far for me was with a wife, who happened to be a police lt., and as the signing wore on became very angry with her husband over what she thought was a bad loan and started thinking he was trying to scam her. The angrier she got, the whimpier he got and then she turned her fury on me, accusing me of being in cahoots with him. She was vicious. Rather than "take control" as most of you are advising Pam, I tried not to inflame her more, I breathed deeply and slowly and meekly got outta there ASAP. She followed me to my car with her big ass cop flash light, yelling, demanding I fill out some ID report while her husband cowered in the kitchen. Some situations go way beyond how the confirmation call was conducted, how documents are presented, determining where people sit, explaning of the role of the notary, blah blah blah. That stuff is simple. Things happen and to blame all this on Pam I think is unreasonable - even 3 incidents.

And all you 6 foot, 3 inch 250-pound (gun optional) guys: Borrowers don't mess with you for an obvious reason, but when a lone woman shows up at the door - I don't care if she's a drop dead notary diva barking orders and telling everybody how it's gonna be - she's easy pickin's for a lot of these lunatics. You just don't get it. Blame the victim.

BTW, I have occasionally thought of all the trouble a man signing a lone woman at her house/apt. could get into if the woman had a mind to make some loony accusation. Same with a female notary alone with a male signer.... things could later be said or implied, causing all sorts of trouble. I'm surprised we don't hear more of this (thank goodness we don't.)

Reply by jba/fl on 7/6/11 1:47am
Msg #388693

I thank you , and I think Pam does as well. There is too

much Blame the Vicitim in this world.

I will add this - not for sympathy, not for sensationalism but for consideration, to file away in your brain:

Once a woman is raped through force, she will never forget: she will never forget to be on her guard; to know where the exits are; to know where her weapons are; to ignore the hairs standing on the back of her neck. She will never forget the feeling of totally losing power, of feeling very small. She will never forget that every situation is to be sized for safety and planned for her success for getting out of anything untoward. But she knows all that planning is only as good as the vigilance she keeps, and she must keep it always.

36 years does not diminsh that fear either. If one out of 4 women are raped - who else here has been? (rhetorical question only) Who, in your life full of women?

Excuse this flare up of anger, but it is a coping tool that only 1 in 4 may understand.

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/6/11 9:38am
Msg #388721

I am one in four. n/m

Reply by JandB on 7/6/11 7:32am
Msg #388705

Re: One minute you're in control, the next .....

"TW, I have occasionally thought of all the trouble a man signing a lone woman at her house/apt. could get into if the woman had a mind to make some loony accusation. Same with a female notary alone with a male signer.... things could later be said or implied, causing all sorts of trouble. I'm surprised we don't hear more of this (thank goodness we don't.)"

My husband and I work together so he takes the single guys and I take the single gals for the very reasons mentioned above. I know this doesn't work for most of you but it is a good idea if you can swing it.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/6/11 9:11am
Msg #388715

Thanks, Pam. I do appreciate that your post was meant

as a warning. Society is changing, and violence is becoming the norm. Safety first is my motto & I won't put my life on the line for this or any other job.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 7/6/11 12:21am
Msg #388689

You did the right thing Pam

It is okay to leave. You were probably in a house where unfortunately, the wife gets beaten or is belittled all of the time. You were smart to get out. I'm 6'5" tall and weigh 260 pounds. Still, if the person is a jerk, I'm out of there. Oh, and by the way, I am very much in control the whole time. Not everyone is pleasant to deal with. Most of your good customers will understand.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 7/6/11 9:26am
Msg #388717

I agree that YOU should stop going to borrower's home

I re-read your post and this is a quote from you:

"He was being extremely verbally abusive and shouting, his wife just sat there as he grabbed my briefcase and told me I needed to sit down and explain to him why the numbers were differnt, this went on for several mins before I was able to make my escape."

We are not being mean to you or claiming to know-it-all. You state that this went on 'for several mins' before you were able to 'make my escape'. You should have left immediately and if he would not allow you to leave, then you should have summoned the police. You are absolutely correct to stop closing in borrower's home for your safety. That's sounds like a great idea based on what I read.

I wont tolerate being falsely imprisoned or verbally abused regardless of how bad this economy is or who's upset about it. And never make excuses for someone's abusive behavior towards you.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/6/11 11:32am
Msg #388732

Re: I agree that YOU should stop going to borrower's home

If this were me, I could see myself letting this go on "for several mins" in the (possibly naive hope) that the borrower would settle down a bit and I could get things back on track. Maybe that's what Pam was thinking. To fly outta there would leave the notary open to accusations of overreacting and then we get into "blame the victim" again - this tiime from the SS or lender. ("Oh, my client is a little fiesty all right, but he's really just a puddycat.") I guess we just had to have been there.

In any case, this whole post got me thinking about how I have gradually gravitated over the years to prompting single male borrowers (unless they're really elderly) during the confirmation call to meet me at a coffee house or whereever... I sense most are glad I suggested it, and very few insist I come to their house/apt ... and when I do I'm sorta on guard - even though nothing violent has ever happened to me in this or any other regard. Actually I'm more afraid of their dogs - but then we know how to handle that issue!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/6/11 12:09pm
Msg #388737

(unless they're really elderly) Hey there might be snow on

roof, but there is still fire in the furnace.

Reply by Pam Bridges on 7/6/11 12:04pm
Msg #388735

Re: I agree that YOU should stop going to borrower's home

It took me a min to take back my briefcase and make my way to the door. I took no longer than anyone else would have in that situation. I don't know what you guys think, that this house was run down and I could tell just looking at it that this would happen????? This house was being refi'd for $235k, it was in a beautiful area, so don't judge books by their covers!!!

I won't tolerate being imprisoned and verbally either, that's why I went to file complaint with pd. Turns out the man has already been arrested for domestic abuse in the past and illegal possession of a Schedule II drug.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 7/6/11 3:59pm
Msg #388780

Re: I agree that YOU should stop going to borrower's home

unless I've missed it, I still don't understand how he got your briefcase?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/7/11 3:44am
Msg #388833

Re: I agree that YOU should stop going to borrower's home

"And never make excuses for someone's abusive behavior towards you."

Great advice... It is NEVER justified or deserved by anyone!! There's always a better way to handle a situation.

Reply by GAMMYx3/MA on 7/6/11 2:02pm
Msg #388767

I know I am late in responding to this but I have to side with the ladies witha little side note. I have been a mobile signing agent since 2001. In 10 years I have had one scare and one wierdo. I will speak re the wierdo first. LATE (11:00PM) Friday evening for a company long out of Massachusetts due to deceptive practices (my wording not the states). I made the mistake of telling him to be comfortable and he could have is slippers on if he wished since I was coming so late. (he did not get home from work till 10:45 which was the reason for the late hour). After driving for almost 1.5 hours I arrived to a dark driveway and walk (I keep a flashlight in the car for this reason) and knocked on the door...imagine my surprise when a man in a bathrobe opened the door. I almost ran the other way. He looked like a gangster with a cigar and dark looks. I held my self up and walked in....20 min later I wished I had walked out. He was quick in his signing of the paperwork but was making too much small talk about his attire....20 minutes is when he informed me that the only thing he had on WAS the bathrobe. I finished within 20 more minutes (yes I did all the signature for the notarizations there but did my stamping at home). That guy creeped me out!!!

Scare. Called by signing company to notarize a woman on a refinance (no I cannot do that anymore but was working under an attorney at the time). Arrive to find the woman had had brain surgery and was surrounded by her mother, a nurse and a friend of the family and was on an IV...and THE HUSBAND. Wife was understanding all the items I went over and I asked for her ID to notate in my journal and Husband pulls his out and throws it at me...This is when I figure out I am in trouble because his name is NOT on the docs anywhere. I explain that most likely the loan company made a mistake and called them immediately. It was not fast enough for HIM. He starts yelling that it is HIS house not hers, he paid all the bills and he was out of work and they were going to lose the house.

I tried several times nicely to explain that I only print the docs I do not create them and that the loan officer or escrow officer was the person he should be speaking to not me.....well the wife is talking now on my phone to the LO and tries to explain to HIM also and he starts throwing his weight around. I guess trying to be nice about it did not work as he escalated to being red in the face and spitting while he's yellling and finally told me to get the hell out of his house...
I knew that the signing was going to fall thru so I had already started packing my stuff up...he grabbed me by the arm and tried to force me out. THIS is where I stood up to him...I told him to take his hands off of me and stop spitting in myt face. I told him his wife was on MY cell phone and I was not leaving without it and if he did not get his hands off me I would be forced to defend myself. AND I was not kidding..I took my 38 out of my notary bag (yes the safety was on) and told him he was a menace to himself and the other women in the house and he should sit down and wait for his wife to finish with my phone.

I walked back to the kitchen where all the ladies were with a smile on my face, apologized for causing a disturbance, the wife handed me back my phone and I wished them all good luck indicating the husband and wished them all a good day. You could have heard a pin drop...then they all smiled and wished me a good day and I walked towards the front door. Husband was still blustering around the house and had been calling me every nasty name he could come up with but I got the last word in. I told him he needed to see a shrink because he had some serious issues and that I hoped his wife would help to see that he did that and I walked out slamming the door behind me.

I walked to my car, and started shaking so badly I dropped my keys. I finally got into the car, pulled out and called the signing company to let them know what happened and to inform them that under NO circumstances was I going back into that house. They had already heard the issues because the LO called them to tell them that their notary was in serious trouble. NICE....they also offered to pay me double the fee even though the signing did not happen. funny thing is I have so well blocked this out I have no idea where, when or who I dealt with I that finer details like being scared that I was going to be bodily harmed doing something I love to do.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/6/11 4:02pm
Msg #388782

Found a pattern to these complaints

When I first read this in the a.m., I spent some time going back through the history on the topic, using the search function.

As Alex had noticed & responded in kind some years ago - the very common denominator, and understand I mean "common denominator" and not any one/particular person, is a 'No Can Do' type of notary.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 7/6/11 5:02pm
Msg #388793

I understand you Pam - the rest of you are just plain

DEAD WRONG! 4 yrs ago, I had 2 nuts from the same SS in 2 wks! Never before - never since. I've posted several times before. Always being in control, I had put my briefcase down on the table while shoing the mrs a specific doc. There were 3: Mr., Mrs. & daughter. Mr had gone downstairs & read something he didn't like/understand. As all 6'6" blocked my pathway, bellowing "I'd leave this house over his dead body", daughter grabs my briefcase from the right - he was to my left. I did immediately call 911 to report I was being held against my will & police did respond (2 cars). Unless you're in that situation - you JUST DON'T KNOW!! It was in the boonies & LO, being late w/ docs decided to throw me under the bus & say I WAS LATE (found this out as police were on the scene). Think the Jed Clampett on steroids meets Herman Munster - the whole damn family was LOONY (Mrs. looked like Ma-Ma, daughter was hunched over w/ a tic).

For this reason :
1- I NEVER go to BO house w/o confirming (temperature check)
2 - I have a cut-off time for arriving at BO's house (this night itI got there @ 10 pm, signing took 2 hrs - 24=5 pgs due to mutiple copies for all 3 signers)
3 - I don't print 245 pg docs - I will chrg extra or cxl in a heartbeat.
4 - If I forget my phone - I go back for it - ALWAYS!
The other loony was in the daytime - single woman. I cudda whupped her - but she was a nut - I left!

Bottom line - you never know who's going to just BLOW! I'm waiting for when a guy posts the same thing. I alwys am in control, but some of the horror stories you hear about these LO's & TC's can make that one (or two) loose cannon(s) snap!

Again, it's never happened since, but I did cxl a signing where the 3 BO's were from out of town & wanted to sign in their hotel room. They said Mrs. was ill & unable to leave room for public area (they're from out of town - how'd she get there?). Even tho' it was a daytime appt - I said NO!! A guy w/ the secret svce wanted to meet in his hotel room - again NO! A house - at least you know that's a residence. No to all hotel/ motel rooms - although I could run an escort/ signing svce...hmmm...

The way you (mostly) ALL jumped on poor pPam just illustrates the "blame the victim" mentality most people have. Given the right circumstances, it could happen to anyone - like winning the LOTTO (twice) or getting struck by lightning (twice). I've been fired twice for not sleeping with my boss - when I was 17 & again when I was 37! Unfortunately both times he propositioned me ALONE, hence no witnesses - he said she said. It never happened btwn those times nor since the last time.

Sorry for the long post - I guess I'm venting!

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/6/11 7:40pm
Msg #388816

<<<I was at the borrowers home and first thing I do is let them look over their settlement statement and payment statement. This time it happened to be way off from what they expected. So Immediately they are furious,..........as he grabbed my briefcase and told me I needed to sit down and explain to him why the numbers were differnt,>>>

Two things Pam did NOT mention in her post (1) That during the confirmation call, she asked the borrower if they spoke to their loan officer to review the terms they will sign for when they meet with her, the Notary, who will be there to WITNESS their signatures... AND (2) That BEFORE she handed the borrowers the HUD for review, that she explained HER ROLE - that she is NOT a party to the transaction, that she does NOT work for the lender, title, or escrow, and that any and ALL questions about the terms are to be directed to the loan officer, whom we will call immediately if needed. She's seeing the documents for the PURPOSE of witnessing the signatures and highlighting the printed features of their loan and has NO knowledge of any conversations, agreements, etc., between those involved in the transaction - which are the borrower, title, escrow and the lender.

I believe, had those two things taken place, the thread would probably be totally different discussion. How can borrowers "get furious" when they are informed of the Notary's role TWICE - before and at the beginning of the loan signing, AND asked and advised to call their loan officer <BEFORE the loan signing appointment> during the initial confirmation call? Is the Notary to blame for wacko borrowers? No, not at all. But it sure would have kept Pam (or other Notaries) from risking their safety and wasting their time on wacko borrowers.

Now, after all of that, if the borrower still gets abusive, then truly - they're nuts!!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/7/11 4:50am
Msg #388835

"first thing I do is let them look over their settlement statement and payment statement."

I have had waaaaay too many people take a look at the bottom line of the HUD and immediately jump to the wrong conclusions. Sadly, they often don't know what they're looking at - even when they tell you they do. So here's what I do, in case this is of help to anyone (especially newbies...)

While the HUD is the first document I go over with borrowers, I seldom give it to them to peruse until I'm ready to walk them through it. I also don't want them to be too quick to start signing documents until they've been instructed on how to sign. (If they've already been over it with their LO or have seen lots of 'em and are comfortable with what they're viewing, then I'm putting IDs into my journal while they're looking at it.)

The very first thing I do when we get to where we're going to sign is to politely guide people to how it would be best for us to arrange ourselves around the table. As we're settling in, I always place the documents we'll be signing in front of me, out of their reach, and their copy on the opposite side of where they're sitting. Once I have their attention, I go over my procedures review to "make sure I'm doing my job" (always said with a smile). This covers several of the things that tend to cause most common errors along with what they can expect to have happen. It's borrowed from the old advice to "tell them what you're going to say, say it, tell them what you've said". [Just a little something picked up in my teacher training eons ago. You can substitute "do" for "say", and leave out the last step in a signing situation, of course. Enough is enough! ]

I find that this process not only helps establish my authority in the situation, but puts them at ease, since they now know what to expect. Sometimes it's not easy to get one or both of them to sit still or focus on what we're about to do, so occasionally I've found myself telling them that I'm going to need their attention - both of them - for a moment before we can get started. I use my best teacher body language for that and it works most of the time - except for the truly ADHD types out there... BTW, your ideas of what that means may be very different from mine! It does NOT mean being stuffy, authoritarian or bossy. It means being quiet, still with a hint of a smile, and making eye contact.

[BTW, some of you might be amazed at how effective that can be with a group of 35+ 5th and 6th graders!! I spent two years as a substitute teacher eons ago and it was great fun watching a whole class squirm until it after it was quiet enough to hear a pin drop before I said anything. Worked like a charm!]

Ouch... getting carried away here again - but this is just FWIW. Nothing works every time - especially when dealing with people with mental and or emotional problems - but sometimes a certain approach might set someone off, while a few tweaks might help calm them down. Other times, you could do things in the most perfect way possible and someone is still going to flip out on you, just because you happen to be convenient and they were ready to go off on someone. You just never know.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/7/11 6:30am
Msg #388842

Closing at borrower's home

I go through much the same process as you, but I love the new Hud and start with page 3, bottom right side - that wonderful box where all the loans terms are spelled out: This amount of money at X%, Y months with Z payment which includes (or not) excrowed items of (list) E amount for total payment of A. "Is this what you are expecting?" I ask, then I wait.


If they are nodding, saying yes, we can go to page 1 and usually be done in a flash. If not, we proceed differently, and may end up calling LO. Either way, if the LO has not been staying on top, this is the tension breaker for me. If the LO has been staying on top of things and keeping the BO in the loop, I consider myself a lucky woman. Thankfully, I think we have much better educated borrowers these days.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/7/11 7:23am
Msg #388848

Why I 'avoid' scrutiny of page 3's loan synopsis ...

Like most, I go over the HUD but as for page 3, I describe the GFE/HUD comparison and then say "this section is a synopsis of your actual loan, which we'll go over with the actual Note" and that usually works to bypass a lot of scrutiny.

The REASON I do this is because the HUD is prepared by the settlement agent, and that adds a human being who is copying and inputting data - which adds a margin of error. Any error in this section is regardless, and all it takes to ruin a day would be one wrong keystroke - OR a change by the lender that never gets revised by settlement on that section. The Note, which IS the binding contract, is drawn by the lender himself and is ALWAYS going to be described point-by-point-by-point with me, and I don't want or need to do that twice.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/7/11 7:50am
Msg #388850

Re: Why I 'avoid' scrutiny of page 3's loan synopsis ...

That is top right side, I said bottom right. I skip that unless they somehow see it and start obsessing. Usually, they are across from me - my hands and arm can cover things I don't want to get into.

I agree though - I don't like that top right area at all. It sends the bo on mission to find other paperwork, compare and make my day longer - LOL. I like to avoid those things.

Reply by CinOH on 7/8/11 10:44am
Msg #389037

Pam,

Not sure how your business will fare without going to borrowers' homes. Convenience is part of the service we offer, but I understand and respect your desire to protect yourself. I'm sorry for your bad experiences.

I've been at this for almost eight years. I've never had a situation like you describe.

There are some things you can do differently in the future.

1. When you set the appointment, explain your role. Let them know that you do not work for the bank, mortgage co., title co., etc. right up front. Let them know if they have questions about the figures or the loan terms that only their loan officer or the title co. can answer them.

2. Reiterate that when you arrive at the signing BEFORE you hand them one piece of paper.

"I just want to reiterate to you my role here. I'm a notary. My job is to verify your identity, present the documents to you, and to witness and notarize your signatures. I can help you locate information in the documents such as interest rates, terms, and amounts. However, if you have questions regarding how rates, terms, or amounts were arrived at, I cannot answer those questions for you, but I can get your loan officer or the title company on the line and they can answer them for you." Maybe not so verbose but something along those lines so that they understand you are NOT responsible for the paperwork in front of them.

3. Be confident, firm, and assertive (not hostile) when communicating with borrowers. Sometimes people feel that because it is their home they can boss you around or dictate to you. Set the tone right up front.

4. At the FIRST HINT that someone is getting upset call the loan officer, signing service, or title company. Don't ask them if they want you to call, just do it. Get someone else involved. That will diffuse the situation and will also alert others if you are really in trouble.

5. After you've introduced yourself and entered the home, there is no need for the borrower to get close enough to you to take your brief case. I do not bring a purse in and always put my briefcase between my legs on the floor. Don't lay anything, including your cell phone or keys, where they can grab it. I always wear a jacket or slacks/dress with pockets.

6. If all else fails and someone has you cornered or will not allow you to leave, call 911. I ALWAYS keep my cellphone in my pants or jacket pocket. I know you're not supposed to, but I do have 911 on speed dial. I also set my phone buttons to "No Tone" so that I can dial the phone in my pocket without anyone else knowing that I'm dialing.

Other things I do is arrive 15 minutes early and case the place. Make sure you know the lay of the land--how to get in and how to get out. Do the same thing once you're inside the place. Note where the doors are and how you got in. I always park on the street, unless they're like a mile off the road.

I'm 5' tall and 115 pounds. I do not have physical presence on my side but I do command respect. I am friendly, professional, and respectful to borrowers, ALWAYS. Even when they are not. I'm also firm and assertive. I've had a few people who have tried to give me a hard time (never what you describe). Most of it you can ignore (bad attitude, bad day, bad life oozing as those things tend to do). However, I do not allow them to bully, intimidate, or abuse me in any way. I advised one borrower (who was particularly nasty) that I seemed to be making him unhappy by being there and that I was going to conclude the signing and ask the title company to send someone else. He apologized and asked me to stay. He stopped being rude after that. Be willing to leave and do it if you have to. The few who do act out will settle down after they know you're willing to leave.

I take self defense classes every year, as I believe every woman should. Women should know how to respond to a threat in any situation, not just at a signing. It's a crazy world we're in.

The vast majority of borrowers are decent, kind, reasonable people. I'm sorry you seem to be running into the minority who are not. Don't be afraid or intimidated. Take assertiveness training and self-defense courses. Use common sense, follow your gut, and pay attention to details in the home. Don't let a few bad apples ruin your business. Good luck to you.