Posted by Karen Aldrich on 7/7/11 11:33am
Msg #388903

Redraw

A notary did a signing for Old Republic. It was a refi with a non borrowing spouse. The notary had the spouse sign all the docs. The title company had to redraw the loan and is charging the notary for the redraw fee at $508.00. Does this sound right to anyone?

Reply by jac_il on 7/7/11 11:43am
Msg #388906

Yikes! Why did the notary have the non borrowing spouse sign all the documents? Were they instructed to do so by the title company/lender? Was the non borrowing spouses name typed on all the documents? Sounds like an inexperienced signing agent. There is often a redraw fee charged when a borrower reschedules an appointment after the docs are drawn and the HUD was approved etc. Normally is is around $250, but I have never heard of this being passed on to the notary. However, if the notary caused the delay of the loan funding due to this signing error and was not told to do this it would technically be their fault. Although, Old Republic would have a hard time collecting it. They could file a claim against the notaries E&O insurance for taking the initiative to sign the documents like that without the title companies permission.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/7/11 3:59pm
Msg #388956

E&O

"Although, Old Republic would have a hard time collecting it. They could file a claim against the notaries E&O insurance for taking the initiative to sign the documents like that without the title companies permission."

That's assuming the notary has special signing agent E&O. Standard Notary E&O Insurance doesn't cover that kind of stuff because it's outside the scope of what a notary does. We don't have bonds here so I'm not sure, but I imagine it would be tough to make a claim on a bond for the same reason.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 11:43am
Msg #388907

Well, I'll probably get vilified for this...but Yes...

I don't blame them for doing this, although I'm surprised to hear someone IS actually pursuing this - a non-borrowing spouse is exactly that - non-borrowing ... and they don't sign the entire loan package. Also possible in some states that they don't sign anything at all...

Why should the borrowers, title, or the LO have to pay to correct the notary/signing agent errors, which is exactly what this is. And if the notary doesn't understand the definition of "non-borrowing spouse", then IMO that notary should research, find a good course, and learn how to have a loan package properly executed.

JMO

Reply by jac_il on 7/7/11 11:53am
Msg #388911

Who is the lender?

You said the title co was Old Republic Title. Who was the lender? Just curious.

Reply by Karen Aldrich on 7/7/11 12:33pm
Msg #388920

Re: Who is the lender?

Bay Equity

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/7/11 11:52am
Msg #388909

Ya' listening, lowballers? n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 7/7/11 11:53am
Msg #388910

Sounds like a $50 signing agent handled the closing.

I'm all for having the title company eat the redraw fee. They can take it out of the money they saved on hiring a cheap NSA.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 7/7/11 12:06pm
Msg #388913

Re: Sounds like a $50 signing agent handled the closing.

I agree with Linda (that's why the TC should hire a professional and not "just a notary" - this means to also pay a professional fee) BUT if the TC hired the cheapest "notary" (not a professional NSA) then I agree with Hugh.

Sounds like the notary did not know what they were doing, unless they were instructed to do what they did by TC or the SS if they were hired by a SS. Even if that was the case, they should have known better. Who is at fault, the unskilled notary or the TC by hiring an unskilled person?

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/7/11 12:11pm
Msg #388914

Trust me, THAT notary doesn't have $508.00 and

isn't making the correction on their own dime. I guess the TC is going to kept the amount they use as a "buffer" anyway. Don't be so harsh all, that notary needs a Notary!

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 7/7/11 12:40pm
Msg #388923

Re: Trust me, THAT notary doesn't have $508.00 and

Don't get me wrong, James. We have all made mistakes. With the flood of new "SAs" thanks to XYZ many of them are entering this business without the proper knowledge or in some cases with even basic knowledge of the business (and/or business in general) I'm surprised that this does not happen more often.

I believe that both the notary AND the TC share responsibility in the situation, as described. If the notary did not have the skills and knowledge they should not be accepting assignments. The TC should be hiring professionals (skills and knowledge included).

Linda is correct, the $508 charge could have been much higher. Without knowing more details of the situation, I think they should split the cost between the TC and the notary ($254/ea).

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/7/11 12:44pm
Msg #388925

I agree with you and Linda I was

Just saying I didn't believe that notary would even have that amount of money in the first place. Truly the notary must accept responsibility for their actions. The TC? Well let's just say maybe they had "high" expectations......

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 7/7/11 12:45pm
Msg #388926

Correction -- just saw Karen's other post ...

Msg #388921 -- Since he was told she would only have to sign a few docs and he made the mistake of having her sign all of them, it is his fault. Sorry, but he is responsible.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 12:14pm
Msg #388915

Re: Sounds like a $50 signing agent handled the closing.

"Who is at fault, the unskilled notary or the TC by hiring an unskilled person? "

IMO both - the unskilled notary for not asking the appropriate questions or educating themselves; the TC for hiring them to begin with to save a few bucks.

I'd guess the fee of $508 being requested is an aggregate total of the initial signing fee, the redraw fee and the fee to send another notary out (hopefully another notary)

This $508, IMO, is minor when you consider what it COULD have been - borrower's loss of rate, LO's loss of commission (especially if they lost the loan and the borrowers went elsewhere) and the ramification of other issues resulting from failure of loan funding due to signing agent error.

Not to mention what this type of stuff does for the reputation of the rest of us who DO know what we're doing...

Reply by Karen Aldrich on 7/7/11 12:35pm
Msg #388921

Re: Sounds like a $50 signing agent handled the closing.

The notary should have none, I agree. But $508? WOW. He was told that wife would only be signing a few docs.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 12:37pm
Msg #388922

So he "was told the wife would only be signing

a few docs" - and he had her sign all of them? Why? Was her name on all of them?

What am I missing?

Reply by Karen Aldrich on 7/7/11 12:41pm
Msg #388924

Re: So he "was told the wife would only be signing

He F'd up. No way I would have made that mistake. He has been doing signings for years. He'll have to pay.

Reply by A S Johnson on 7/7/11 12:00pm
Msg #388912

It is not if the redraw cost "sounds right".
It's the NSA does not know what he/she is doing. One basic rule for a NSA is for the signer(s) to sign as thier name is printed on the document, so why would you have a NBS spouse sign where their name name is not printed.
The basic problem is the use of a NSA that will accept low ball fees and does not process the knowledge to do their job properly.
And yes, A $508 redraw fee would not wrong when you take into consideration the intrest charges for when the controct was to fund and when it funds at a later date caused by this mistake.
Yes. In my early days as a NSA, I thought I would have every signature page signed, all other pages initialed. I didn't have to pay a redraw fee, but was corrected about this and addopted a sign where names are printed and initial were their is ablank for them.
Now as an knowledgable NSA, if when I have a NBS and am checking the docs I find one that I think the NBS should sign and it doesn't have a name on it, I call for instructions.
I am the Notary/NSA. My job is the I D the BR and get the docs signed. I am not a Escrow Officer who is working from instructions from the lender and has a knowledge of the laws of the state the property is in governing what is included in the docs and how they are to be signed.

Reply by OU_Stoops on 7/7/11 12:19pm
Msg #388916

Not a chance the lender or title company can collect on this from the notary. If I was the notary I would tell them were to stick it! I agree that the notary should know better and do the job right. However the lender has no relationship to the notary unless they contracted the notary directly. The TC would have the burden of paying the redraw fee but only to appease their client. Notaries are always to blame and never given the credit where credit is due! Lenders these days can not draw their documents correctly and then blame the notary when the docs are not executed right! Want to hold notary accountable but do not hold themselves to the same standard.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 12:31pm
Msg #388919

You may be right that title has the burden to pay redraw fees...however if this redraw is a direct result of the notary's error, why would title go out of pocket on it? IMO they have every right to charge the person who caused the redraw. What you're saying is title should carry the burden for their OWN mistakes and also carry the burden for the notary's mistakes. I disagree with this. As I said, I've never heard a company do this but it doesn't surprise me and I don't blame them.

"Not a chance the lender or title company can collect on this from the notary"...don't bet on it.

JMO

Reply by Frank/NC on 7/7/11 12:27pm
Msg #388917

If we as Notaries represent ourselves as professionals, then all our work must be professional. Having the NBS sign all the docs indicates the Notary had no idea of what they were doing. In addition, if the Title company hired a low ball Notary at low ball prices, they paid for what they got. I think that if there was any additional cost to the Title company it should be charged back to the Notary. I don't know about $508 but whatever the real loss to the Title company, the Notary should be responsible for.

Reply by laurel/nc on 7/7/11 12:30pm
Msg #388918

What goes around comes around

If they hire inexperienced notaries, and the first clue is the fee, then they need to walk the new notary thru it and hold their hands. You get what you pay for!

Reply by OU_Stoops on 7/7/11 12:53pm
Msg #388928

Re: What goes around comes around

Title company is at as much fault as the notary. Yes the notary botched the job but the escrow company is responsible for making sure the documents are executed to the lenders instructions.They should have done a better job screening the notaries they hire. The notary did not do the job correctly so they should not have been paid. I have been in this industry for years ( On All Sides ) and never heard of anyone going after a notary for a redraw fee. That opens the door to charge for smaller mistakes like a missed acknowledgement or signature that delays the funding. Mistakes happen and I know everyone here has made them. They gonna charge the notary days of interest? Also what if a SS hired the notary then who does the liability fall on. The notary or the SS? If the notary is going to take on that type of liability than we need to be paid accordingly. Hire a quality notary and pay a decent fee and then these problems don't happen. JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 1:00pm
Msg #388930

Re: What goes around comes around

"That opens the door to charge for smaller mistakes like a missed acknowledgement or signature that delays the funding"

They already do, don't they? Many dock the notary's fee for any errors the notary makes - PLUS make them go out on their own dime to correct it PLUS foot the bill for return shipping - IF they trust the notary enough. If they don't, they send another notary and dock the initial notary's check accordingly.

As to liability, IMO the liability for a properly executed package is on the notary - that's the whole point of the "signing agent" - to get a properly executed loan package...and hence Signing Agent E&O coverage for those who have it. For those who don't, it's on their head - and out of their pocket. If they don't know what they're doing, they should decline doing loans til they get the proper education.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/7/11 1:08pm
Msg #388932

Re: What goes around comes around

I'm going back out on one today where TC overnighted the Doc's to the borrower Msg #386798 and the borrowers just had the Docs to be notarized available for me and nothing else. I asked if they would like me to check the "other" Docs to make sure they were alright (being the professional I am) and they replied no, they were sure the rest were ok. Well I'm going back out on them 'cause they signed the incorrect date. If they had let me review them I certainly would have caught it and saved them a LOT of money.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/7/11 12:57pm
Msg #388929

Re: Redraw/YES

Yes, the notary should not only pay the redraw fee, but also do the resign gratis, AND pay for the shipping. If it's our mistake, we correct it at our expense. At least I do. JMO

Reply by Les_CO on 7/7/11 1:13pm
Msg #388934

Re: PS

Forgot to post...I think $508 is way out of line. My experience is that a doc prep fee is around $150 (except provident: $300). Also my experience is that with Old Republic different offices charge different fees...around $250 "closing fee" and $350 "support fee". Looks like this one lumped them in all together.
If it was me I'd fix my mistake, and wave my fee, and pay for shipping, and an honest redraw fee if necessary. JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/7/11 1:29pm
Msg #388937

Les, IME I've seen redraw fees of upwards of $500

As I said, this may be the 'redraw fee" plus a fee to send another notary out...in wondering about the odd number of $508, maybe they're also charging their additional courier fees...but this is all just my guess.

I'd almost guarantee the original notary is not going to be paid.

May be worthwhile for this notary to take it to their attorney to protect their own rights.

JMO

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/7/11 1:40pm
Msg #388939

<<<A notary did a signing for Old Republic. It was a refi with a non borrowing spouse. The notary had the spouse sign all the docs. The title company had to redraw the loan and is charging the notary for the redraw fee at $508.00.........***He has been doing signings for years.***>>>

Then he certainly should have known better.....IMHO, he's WORSE than a newbie.

Reply by SharonMN on 7/7/11 3:50pm
Msg #388953

To the best of my knowledge, I've never been responsible for anything like this, but whenever I receive a SS or TC contract that says anything about me being liable for errors or "indemnifying" either SS or TC, I always add language that my liablity is limited to waiver of my fee. I'm happy to step and correct any errors that are my fault (to the extent possible), but there is no way I'm taking on unlimited liability for a $xxx job. What's next, are they going to try to get the notary to reimburse the borrower if the loan doesn't fund and they lose their interest rate?

Reply by janCA on 7/7/11 7:15pm
Msg #388989

Whole thing still unclear

Were both names printed on docs???? Were there any instructions, exactly, what docs the NBS was suppose to sign? Need clarity!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 7/7/11 8:31pm
Msg #388996

Totally agree, Jan

Before lynching the notary, we need to determine a few things:

1. Did the lender/TC provide instructions on how the NBS was supposed to sign/not sign? It's my understanding that individual states have different rules on how/what a NBS is to sign/not sign, depending on where the property is located.
2. Was the NBS's name printed on the signature lines - or did the notary insist the NBS sign simply because the NBS happened to be there? Could this also have been a loan processor error? (Gee, imagine that!)
3. Poster indicated signer was not a newbie (and presumably not a cheapie), indicating you don't always get a quality job with a veteran nor a sloppy job from a lo-ball notary. Sometimes you don't get what you pay for - and sometimes you pay for what you get. We just don't know.
Poster needs to come forth with some decent info before we can make a judgment, IMHO. Seems we've had a few of these lately, where the poster throws out a bone, we all jump on it - in this case blame the notary - without any substantiating information...

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/7/11 8:45pm
Msg #388998

If this is notary #2, she might not have the facts either.

Do you really think the person that messed-up is going to accept blame? The game "telephone" comes to mind.

These companies might have blamed the notary regardless. Maybe they passed the buck to the lowest person on the totem pole.

TC might have put both names on the docs.
SS might have given instructions for both to sign.
SA might have had conflicting instructions and opted for "more is better."

The OP might not have the facts that many here want.

We'll only know if in a few days we get a post about how some SA is not only having problems getting paid, but is being sued.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/7/11 10:14pm
Msg #389006

Given the information in the original post “refi with non-borrowing spouse, notary had spouse sign all docs” I would doubt that OR would charge a redraw fee if the notary had been specifically instructed to have the NBS sign.
The redraw fee is minor compared with what the notary may have liable for. Suppose no one caught this error, and the docs were recorded? In some States (like SC) having a non-borrowing spouse sign the docs will put a cloud on the title. A notary that is not familiar with the law can do a lot of damage having people indiscriminately signing the paperwork, or making changes in the documents they deem proper JMO

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/7/11 10:31pm
Msg #389007

Making changes they deem proper, could be UPL. n/m

Reply by janCA on 7/7/11 10:42pm
Msg #389008

Still sketchy!

In my opinion, a seasoned notary would not have the NBS sign all the docs. There are too many clues to indicate otherwise, and if you've been doing this for awhile, at best you would call the hiring entity if you were in doubt. The 1003 alone will let you know who's on the loan. We all screw up at some point in time, but this would be extremely blatant. Until I know the exact facts, I won't be judging this notary.

Reply by LKT/CA on 7/8/11 12:06am
Msg #389012

Re: Still sketchy!

<<<In my opinion, a seasoned notary would not have the NBS sign all the docs.....Until I know the exact facts, I won't be judging this notary.>>>

Here are the exact facts as written by the OP in messages 388903, 388921 and 388924:

"It was a refi with a non borrowing spouse. The notary had the spouse sign all the docs......He was told that wife would only be signing a few docs.......He has been doing signings for years."

Grab your gavel......

Reply by LeeA on 7/8/11 6:24am
Msg #389016

RE Draw

As a signing company, I can tell you that errors happen every day, it is always assumed that a 50 dollar NSA makes the mistakes. We do not hire 50 dollars agents. We hire Signing Agents that have done at least 300 closings before we hire them and normally pay a standard fee to our agents, and we pay our agents every month at the same time.

I don't post on here very often, but I can tell you that Title companies do pass these type of fees on to Signing Companies, and to Notaries. It is the Notary Fault, and they should have to pay the fee. With our company we pay half of that fee if someone makes this type of error. We believe it is our mistake as well as the agents for not making sure the Signing Agent is not professional or are qualified to do the closing.

This is another reason why some Title Companies hire our SS company. Because we stand behind a Notaries, A lot of times there are errors Notaries, make a we don't get paid, but I still pay the Notary. I know some of you don't think SS serve a function. When you are professional SS you will take care of your Clients and the Notaries.

Our Policy is we all make mistakes in life, and how we handle them is what sets us apart.

Reply by janCA on 7/8/11 11:21pm
Msg #389139

It's also heresay!

Wouldn't fly in a court of law. The OP is not the notary whose reputation is on the line. Did they get this from title or straight from the horse's mouth. Lot of assumption here, as far as I'm concerned.