Posted by Marian_in_CA on 7/2/11 11:13am
Msg #388447

Revoking their commission were "unfair"?

This appears to be going on over the past few weeks:


http://www.wsbtv.com/video/28239318/index.html

http://www.wsbtv.com/video/28370944/index.html


Now, I can see... in some cases an acknowledgment can take place well after a document is actually signed, provided the notary certificate reflects the proper date.... but that doesn't appear to be the case in the story above.

They really think that revocation of their commissions was unfair?

Kudos to these clerks in Georgia.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/2/11 11:34am
Msg #388449

Docs stamped before they received comm? Wow, Ga. But wait, I though Ga was an Atty only state for home loans?

Reply by Calnotary on 7/2/11 11:37am
Msg #388450

Maybe those notaries were attorneys.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 11:50am
Msg #388455

The news report is misleading, James, et al.

The problem is that they say "mortgage documents" rather than "foreclosure documents".

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/2/11 11:57am
Msg #388457

"O"....hi...o........LOL n/m

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/2/11 11:42am
Msg #388452

They are in big trouble!

Backdating, before the date your commision started? Holy cow.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 11:48am
Msg #388454

Here's where I have a problem with news stories on this

1-They make me sick because they are not being fair to notaries public at large.
2-It is quite clear to me that 95% of the notaries involved in the problems that have occurred are not "notaries", they are dumb criminals who got a notary seal/stamp to perpetrate fraud for a paycheck.
3-Finally, this really raises my hackles. In the first video the reporter starts out saying,

"...they [homeowners] are questioning the credentials of notaries who signed their mortgage documents..."

What mortgage documents is she talking about?

News people, if you are talking about foreclosure documents then say foreclosure. Don't leave it hanging there as if the good notaries who signed loans are in question.

I realize that notaries in Georgia must not do loan work without an attorney, but this is being heard across the country.

Every time I have heard anything about Georgia's cutting off commissions this is the way it is presented. It's way under my skin.

I would love to stop putting this on "notaries" and put it on criminals who got a stamp...but that's not going to happen.

The good thing that might come out of this is mandatory training and testing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/11 11:57am
Msg #388458

Just a small clarification

"I realize that notaries in Georgia must not do loan work without an attorney, but this is being heard across the country"

Not quite - only attorneys in GA can conduct closings on GA property - not a notary under the supervision of an attorney, as in other attorney-states,....GA is very specific about this. Further, telephone presence does not satisfy the requirement of attorney presence. A GA attorney must conduct the closing.

UPL ADVISORY OPINION 2003-2 (277 Ga. 472)

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 12:21pm
Msg #388463

Re: Just a small clarification

Sorry, I should have said, "I realize that notaries in Georgia must not do loan work without an attorney PRESENT TO CONDUCT THE CLOSING, but this is being heard across the country"

I forget that someone might take that remark and run with it in the wrong direction without researching the do's and don'ts of their state.

Question Linda. Must the GA attorney also be the notary or may he or she employ a legal assistant who is a notary to notarize documents while he or she conducts the closing? Maybe GA attorneys also notaries upon passing the bar exam.

To be sure, I know that GA is not like Mass, but I did not realize that the GA attorney must do all the notarizing, too. Interesting.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/11 12:34pm
Msg #388464

Re: Just a small clarification

"Must the GA attorney also be the notary or may he or she employ a legal assistant who is a notary to notarize documents while he or she conducts the closing?"

Not sure Brenda...I just know that notaries in GA cannot conduct closings...closings must be conducted by an attorney, and telephone presence (as allowed in other states, like SC) does not satisfy the requirement. I don't know that attorneys must do all the notarizing, and I never meant to imply that, so I don't know how they handle that little detail.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 12:40pm
Msg #388467

It's too bad that our beloved GA Notary is not here

to respond. (RIP, friend.)

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/11 12:44pm
Msg #388468

Reading my mind Brenda.... n/m

Reply by PAW on 7/2/11 1:51pm
Msg #388474

Re: Just a small clarification

Many GA attorneys are also notaries. Especially in the real estate sector. But, there is no requirement, that I am aware of, where the attorney conducting the closing must be a notary. And I'm pretty sure being an attorney in GA does not come with notary credentials.

So, in essence, the attorney is the lead person and conducts the closing. A notary is required to notarize the signatures on documents as required.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 2:06pm
Msg #388476

Thank you, sir. I don't really recognize you. ;)

But, thanks for the 411. That's what I thought was the case.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/2/11 12:03pm
Msg #388459

Aha! a marketing tool for the asking....an SS

That guarantees everything will be done correctly and legally from Lender to borrower and back. Now who wouldn't want to pay a premium price for THAT service?

Reply by HisHughness on 7/2/11 12:16pm
Msg #388461

You are blaming the messenger

***I would love to stop putting this on "notaries" and put it on criminals who got a stamp...but that's not going to happen.***

The problems were created by notaries public acting <in their capacity> as notaries. It is basically absurd to expect the news media to report that alleged "criminals" perpetrated the acts...oh, and they happened to be notaries and were performing notarial acts.

If a cop takes a bribe, you don't expect the media to report that a "criminal" took a bribe and, oh, yes, he was a cop and the bribe was given to him for actions he was expected to take as a cop, do you?

If a realtor rips off a customer in a real estate transaction, do you expect the media to report that a "criminal" defrauded the customer and the "criminal" happened to be a realtor? How about a drunken doctor who saws off the wrong leg in a criminally negligent act; is he first a "criminal," and then incidentally a doctor?

They are notaries. They performed fraudulent acts as notaries. We take our lumps, just like every other profession on the face of the planet.

But you are right on one thing: One benefit that might acrrue is better training. And I, of course, think a nationwide Uniform Code for Notarial Practices would be an excellent idea, just as we have Uniform Codes for everything from commercial paper to child custody. That will ultimately occur, and will make our jobs much easier.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 12:37pm
Msg #388466

Right. I said it won't happen, Hugh.

All that the public at large is exposed to is that notaries did a certain thing. No analysis is going into what actually took place and that the notaries were required to get commissions so that they could do specific criminal acts. I have read and analyzed at least 50 reports of this nature on notary fraud and in almost every case the "notary" was an employee who got his or her commission and seal to get 'er done. There are maybe two out of those fifty articles where a notary had a commission for longer than one term.

I think it would be safe to say that 90%+ of the "notaries" involved became notaries for the intended purpose of fraud while working for a criminal outfit. I just can't gather that type of "notary" to my bosom as one of my own. You're welcome to that breed.

However, I readily admit that I have not researched your scenarios nor run across any articles on cops, doctors, or real estate agents who joined their respective professions for the specific purpose of performing criminal acts AFTER they became employees of a certain type of company. I have never encountered a report of a company that requires its new employees to become cops, doctors or real estate agents for the specific purpose of fraud. Therefore, I cannot comment on your examples.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/2/11 1:03pm
Msg #388470

Re: Right. I said it won't happen, Hugh.

***Therefore, I cannot comment on your examples.***

And I, likewise, lack the information to verify your contention that all the notaries involved became notaries with the sole intent of committing criminal acts.

What I can verify through media reports is that they were notaries, performed notarial acts, and apparently did so in a criminal manner. They would not, of course, have been able to perform those acts if they had NOT been notaries.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/11 1:43pm
Msg #388471

My hope is that because of the seriousness

of this crime we will soon see filters to make sure that the right kind of people become notaries public.

Hugh, I totally get what you are saying. I just know that there are situations where notaries-like-us are being tarred with a big brush while the truth is that those doing the crimes are people who never gave notarization a thought until they hooked up with a foreclosure mill.

Yes, you are right that they took an oath of office and should have performed according to that oath. Good point--you are right that I have not verified the intent of each. You win that one. I see a lot of, for instance, a first time notary with a commission that expires in 2012, but they notarized a document >>with a date from 2007<< when the commission is four years.

Here is a tidbit from the Texas SOS that shows that they have stepped it up and are doing their part to make sure that criminals with records are not becoming Texas notaries. That's huge. I received this in an email the other day.

"On the application, the person applying for a commission or renewing a commission is required to reveal any felony or misdemeanor convictions. We conducted random criminal history background checks and determined that our applicants were not always forthcoming. Consequently, we are now checking criminal history on all commissioned notaries. This check is handled through an automated program that sends a computer file of the identifying information for notaries to [agency/company doing the background check]. While this automation is an efficient process, it is a post-commission check which means that our revocation proceedings have increased rather substantially."

I remain amazed...well, not really...that more states are not at least discussing testing. Lawyers hire legal assistants/notaries and lawyers make up a good many of the legislators. They do not want to put an expense on the lawyer for testing or having a notary out of the office for a test/training.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/2/11 1:48pm
Msg #388473

Re: My hope is that because of the seriousness

My guess is that lawyers, as a group, are the second-greatest offenders in the improper-notarization area. They are notoriously lax in how they handle notarizations. And yes, I was also when I practiced.

The greatest offenders, I suspect, are used car dealers.

Reply by John Tennant on 7/2/11 2:57pm
Msg #388478

Re: My hope is that because of the seriousness

California requires both FBI fingerprinting and background check, and their own State investigation when you apply for the Notary Public commission as well as when you renew.

Just tested out, and applied for renewal. They will not renew until those processes are completed.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/2/11 6:16pm
Msg #388486

Re: My hope is that because of the seriousness

The new FBI requirement implemented in 2008 is one of the primary reasons the number of notaries in CA have plummeted -- they are actively weeding out anyone with a criminal background. To me, this is a good thing.

However, they still manage to get bozos through the process.... and I think that's because they allow these people to take the state exam immediately after their 6-hour "let's tell you all the answers to the exam but not actually train you to be a notary" seminar. No offense to the instructors out there... but I think these one day, get it all done, things is actually a big disservice to our profession. I have not, nor will I ever, participate in one of them.

I've always felt, and still do.... that there needs to be at least 2 weeks between the time you finish your course and taking the exam. It forces you to study and learn the material.

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/4/11 9:57pm
Msg #388562

Marian, as a professional educator

I can tell you with 100% certainty that you can't make people study the material.

Just like some students will wait until the last minute and "cram" before a test. You can't stop it from happening.

True learning is a life-long journey. The message is to visit NotRot often and read, read, read!

Reply by jojo_MN on 7/5/11 12:09am
Msg #388565

Do the SS and TCs still require their own background checks

even though state already did the fingerprinting and bgc?

Reply by MW/VA on 7/2/11 8:25pm
Msg #388488

This is about a "foreclosure mill". There was a piece on 60

Minutes about this going on, based in GA.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/11 8:35pm
Msg #388490

Yep..Linda Green of the various signatures all over the

country...