Posted by ikando on 7/18/11 4:09pm
Msg #390056

Undocumented couple buying property

I've been fretting over this for a while.

I was contacted by a person who was selling his mobile home to an Hispanic couple. The only document which required notarization was the title to the mobile home. But the seller wanted a bill of sale and receipt, which he had "translated on the computer" also notarized. I took that comment to mean that he had used a program to put into Spanish the documents he had created in English.

The title was no problem. The seller had appropriate ID and all went well. The problem came when he wanted me to notarize the signatures of the buyers (who had an expired passport (2002) and an expired Mexican voting card) on the other docs. Fortunately for me, the docs he created did not list the buyers on the notary portion, so I only notarized his signature.

My fretting comes from the fact that these people have young children who were at the transaction. When I asked why the parents hadn't updated their documents, they replied that they didn't have time. These people paid cash for the down payment. They drove 2 separate cars to the site of the transaction. I doubt they have insurance if they haven't had time to update their documents. But my biggest problem is that they are flaunting their disrespect of the law before those 2 kids--perpetuating the illegality to the next generation.

I've pondered turning them into the authorities, but doubt that would have any impact. They both work--the wife with the girl who acted as translator--so there doesn't appear to be a financial problem. They just seem to be taking advantage.

Whew. Got that off my chest. Any comments?

Reply by Woody Williams on 7/18/11 4:16pm
Msg #390057

You are a Notary Public, not an Immigration Agent.

Reply by SouthernOK on 7/18/11 4:17pm
Msg #390058

If they aren't legal they can't live here.

Report them, it's OK law.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/18/11 4:32pm
Msg #390059

Since you mention the ethnicity of the buyers, how about the seller? Weren't they concerned about who they were selling their mobile home to, just as you were? I can't believe you posted this!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/18/11 5:15pm
Msg #390066

If I'm reading your post correctly, here are the facts that I'm able to pull from that:

1. They're Hispanic and speak little or no English
2. They don't have valid ID
3. They own two cars
4. They have two young children
5. They made a cash down payment on a mobile home [and probably for the entire purchase, if the seller was giving them a Bill of Sale]

Did I miss anything? The rest is pure conjecture - however probable - but you have no proof of your assumptions. You did your job and presumably followed the law. My recommendation is to spend as much additional time and thought to this incident as you do to any other signing appointment. Forget it and move on!

As for the young kids, they're probably at least learning some positive lessons, like work and save your $$ and you too can pay cash up front and own your own home outright! If they're here illegally, I'm not excusing that, but sounds to me like maybe the rest of us could learn a thing or two from them...

Reply by jba/fl on 7/18/11 9:20pm
Msg #390093

Bravo - good reasoning. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 7/18/11 5:46pm
Msg #390069

IMO if I were suspicious that a transaction wasn't legal in

any way, I would have refused the notarization. Otherwise, they are just suspicions w/no proof.

Reply by Sha/CA on 7/18/11 5:55pm
Msg #390075

Re: IMO if I were suspicious that a transaction wasn't legal in

I agree with Janet. As long as you did your job according to the law, the rest is just assumption, conjecture and a waste of time. Who you gonna call?

Reply by janCA on 7/18/11 8:49pm
Msg #390092

How about no DL's and driving cars

Did a signing a few months back. Both the husband and wife had CA ID cards, but no DL's. The wife was driving a big SUV, in fact she drove up just when I arrived, and the husband had a construction business and lots of heavy equipment at his residence, which, was also his construction yard. This was country property. Built the home themselves, paid cash, but then decided they needed to take equity out of their home in order to complete yard, build pool etc. But again, no DL's.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/18/11 10:05pm
Msg #390100

"My fretting comes from the fact that these people have young children who were at the transaction. When I asked why the parents hadn't updated their documents, they replied that they didn't have time. These people paid cash for the down payment. They drove 2 separate cars to the site of the transaction. I doubt they have insurance if they haven't had time to update their documents. But my biggest problem is that they are flaunting their disrespect of the law before those 2 kids--perpetuating the illegality to the next generation."

So you didn't notarize their signatures at all, then? This just comes from a personal viewpoint? If that's the case, this seems like something that belongs in political discussion. It's not that I don't share of frustration... I live in a state with massive numbers of illegal residents from all over the country... but I'm just not sure how this is a notarial issue.

I'm wondering why you bothered to ask *WHY* they hadn't updated their documents? How is that your business? They either have proper ID or they don't. Maybe it's because I see this a lot and have had to develop a rather neutral way of handling it.

I simply tell these people what forms of ID are acceptable, and which ones are not. If they want their signature notarized, they need to provide it. I leave it at that... I never, ever inquire as to why things are the way they are. At least, not directly. Often, they volunteer the information, but I never ask for it. I don't really need to know why.

In CA, for example, we're allowed to accept valid Canadian or Mexican DLs, or passports issued in the last 10 years, provided they have a stamp. Last week, a guy handed me his Venezuelan passport for ID. It was current... but he didn't have it stamped. I told him that I couldn't accept it without the USCIS stamp. He kept telling me that he was there legally and they didn't stamp his passport when he came in to the country. I felt awful... but there was nothing I could do. State law specifically says we can only accept a foreign passport if it has been stamped. For all I know, the guy was lying and he was there illegally... or maybe he really was there legally and his story was true... I don't know. All I know is what I could do (or not do) for him. I let him know what his options were and went from there.

Anyway... I don't see the notary issue in this. You can suspect that they are illegal. Let's face it... they very well may be. As a notary...I don't see the issue.. you either notarized their signatures or you didn't. As a private citizen? You may very well feel outraged at their manipulation of the system. I get it. I know, though, that every situation is different... though it doesn't excuse breaking the law, no matter how well intentioned.

Actually... in a way, I do see some obligation as a public official who has taken an oath to uphold the laws of the state. In that regard... I can see having a duty to report something that you KNOW to be illegal. However, from what I read above it's just your feelings about it, and not any actual proof of a crime. You said things like:

"I doubt they have insurance if they haven't had time to update their documents. But my biggest problem is that they are flaunting their disrespect of the law..."

"They just seem to be taking advantage."

It seems, from what you posted, that you're making assumptions and moral judgments about them rather than presenting facts that they're breaking the law.

Consider my guy from Venezuela... the only thing I knew is that his passport wasn't stamped. That could mean a lot of things. It's not enough for me to feel obligated to call USCIS and report him.

I think if you have first hand knowledge/proof that these people are committing a crime, then you are probably obligated, as a citizen, to report it. If you are are just assuming things because you're upset about they handle themselves, their finances or parent their children? That's a personal call and not at all related to your job as a notary.

Reply by HisHughness on 7/18/11 11:27pm
Msg #390101

Marian, I tip my hat to you and Janet...

...and the others in this thread for dissecting the judgmental assumptions in the original post. Excellent job.

Reply by AngelTX on 7/19/11 12:39am
Msg #390106

Wow how crazy is that they want a home to live in, they worked to get money saved it and didnt ask for any loan or assistance to get it. But they are brown, so automatically they are illegal. What about all the white illegal canadians there are here, no one asks them because they are anglo.

It is bad enough they are gonna want me to start carrying my birth certiifcate here in Texas, why because i am brown, what about my white looking sister, does she get the problems i do because of my skin color. They ask do you speak English and I tell them no sir, i speak Chinese. It is soo insulting how people judge you on your skin. Did anyone forget that Texas was "Mexico" and a good portion of the people here are not "Mexicans", but everyone gets dumped into being a "Mexican" like it is such a dirty word.

If they have id and i can see they are who they are, i really dont care what they are as long as their money is green.

To you people who want to start calling immigration and pulling up the trains, to load us up and send us back, better be careful because there are plenty of blue eyed, blondes, etc., in Mexico, but they are fortunate because of their skin they dont reep the discrimination that many do.

And what are your plans for the Native Americans are yall gonna start calling homeland security on them, maybe they should have called them on you when your people started showing up and taking land that wasnt even yours. Sorry if i offended people which i am sure i am. I am used to people ripping you a new one for dumb questions, or whatever reason they dont like each other, but this is a new low, and i bet anything they are "Christians" yeah right only when it is convenient.

Reply by ikando on 7/19/11 11:09am
Msg #390153

Marian, I really appreciate you responding. You're right. I was making some assumptions, not because they were Hispanic, but because I have issue with anyone who has expired identification documents.

I often have seniors who present expired DLs because they don't drive any more. I let them know they can obtain a non-expiring state ID for situations when they need it.

I also have issue with people who don't have auto insurance, and did make that assumption too, solely based on other personal experience. Sometimes I put too much of me in situations that maybe I shouldn't. It leaves me open to criticism; but it also makes me empathetic. Win some; lose some.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/19/11 12:23am
Msg #390105

Notarize, don't analyze

You have no idea what their situation is, nor do you need to know. Did they provide what you needed to complete the notarization? Either way, your job is done. Their immigration status is none of your business.

Reply by MichiganAl on 7/19/11 3:00am
Msg #390108

Looks like everyone else summed it up pretty well. n/m