Posted by BrendaTx on 3/29/11 11:12pm
Msg #377920
It passed. Va HB 2318
I just read about it. Don't have a link. But, supposedly, the governor signed it today.
Goes into effect July 2012.
|
Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/30/11 5:52am
Msg #377923
I'm very disappointed, but not surprised in the least. It's scary that the people who are responsible for making laws in this state have NO CLUE what they are doing and the implications and unintended consequences this law will have.
http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2011/hb2318/
|
Reply by Laurie_OR on 3/31/11 9:37am
Msg #378085
I noticed the article has a poll next to it. Be sure to input your opinion!
|
Reply by ME/NJ on 3/30/11 6:34am
Msg #377924
Notary Now is having a party now Plus
watch almost every closing get funneled to VA once they figure a way to get all docs esigned. Thought Nations Direct 45 was low 25 will be the new fee.
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 6:45am
Msg #377925
Does the bill still require that the signer be personally
known to the notary? At least that might deter a fraction of the rampant fraud which is caused by the passing of this law.
|
Reply by jba/fl on 3/30/11 7:26am
Msg #377927
No such requirement. n/m
|
Reply by jba/fl on 3/30/11 7:30am
Msg #377931
Oops, I was hasty. Strike that, read Renee's post. n/m
|
Reply by jba/fl on 3/30/11 7:44am
Msg #377934
2nd Oops, I was sloppy. Stamper's post. n/m
|
Reply by Stamper_WI on 3/30/11 7:26am
Msg #377928
Identity criteria
(i). In the case of an electronic notarization,
85 "satisfactory evidence of identity" may be based on video and audio conference technology that permits
86 the notary to communicate with and identify the principal at the time of the notarial act, provided that
87 such identification is confirmed by (a) personal knowledge, (b) an antecedent in-person identity proofing
88 process in accordance with the specifications of the Federal Bridge Certification Authority, or (c) a
89 valid digital certificate accessed by biometric data or by use of an interoperable Personal Identity
90 Verification card that is designed, issued, and managed in accordance with the specifications published
91 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Federal Information Processing Standards
92 Publication 201-1, "Personal Identity Verification (PIV) of Federal Employees and Contractors," and
93 supplements thereto or revisions thereof."
pg2 of 4
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+ful+HB2318+pdf
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 7:28am
Msg #377930
Re: Identity criteria
If the notary did the initial in-person ID proofing, it might make sense. But the bill allows a third party to do the identity proofing. Sorry, but I would not go anywhere near this.
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 7:27am
Msg #377929
The one thing I like about this bill
is that it authorizes notaries to perform verifications of fact. This has been part of the NNA's Model Notary Act for some time, and it is actually a very good idea - it is something similar to what civil-law notaries do and would be a major convenience to the public. This allows a notary to view vital records (such as birth certificates) and issue a notarial certificate certifying that certain facts have been verified. I'd love to have that available in Florida.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 7:34am
Msg #377932
Good luck with your record keeping, VA notaries, should
you choose to do this - remember you have to keep the videos on file for 5 years. And I'm sure the security of these videos will be very strict.....or at least it should be.
|
Reply by jba/fl on 3/30/11 7:42am
Msg #377933
Re: Good luck with your record keeping, VA notaries, should
YouTube could archive them for free, always available, just not confidential and if it really isn't Jane Doe we could all comment on it, give thumbs up, etc.
Ah, the possibilities of technology.
|
Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/30/11 7:44am
Msg #377935
Re: Good luck with your record keeping, VA notaries, should
I for one will not be going anywhere near this type of work. But I agree with ME/NJ that closings could be funneled through VA and I can just see all the title companies salivating at this.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 7:51am
Msg #377936
Wonder if the state will now allow an additional fee
for archiving the videos....
And as for closings - I'd tack on a surcharge for archiving the closing for 5 years...
MHO
|
Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/30/11 8:01am
Msg #377937
Re: Wonder if the state will now allow an additional fee
Don't know about an archiving fee, but VA electronic notaries are allowed to charge up to $25 per electronic notarization.
For a typical LSI package then I would get $300 just for the notarizations!!!! (Ha ha - in my dreams!)
|
Reply by James Dawson on 3/30/11 8:18am
Msg #377938
Talk about reducing the # of NSA, How about notaries ?
Hello Walmart, Walgreen's, Post office, UPS and welcome back FedEx.
|
Reply by enotary/va on 3/30/11 8:33am
Msg #377939
Re: Is this legal in any other state???
If so, how is that working?
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 8:35am
Msg #377940
No - not legal in any other state. Thank God! n/m
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 8:44am
Msg #377941
I would not have a problem doing this if the
person is personally known to me...there are people I've known for years who I would have no problem notarizing online for simply because I know who they are....
Would not, and probably will not, do this if identification docs are required.
MHO
|
Reply by ArtG/KS on 3/30/11 9:04am
Msg #377944
Re: I would not have a problem doing this if the
In Ks we remain without legislative authority to do electronic notarizations and also we cannot certify anything. We only take acknowledgements or administer and oath or an affirmation. Period thats it. Per KS Secreatary of State. When legislative authority allows it, a Ks electronic key will cost approx 100 dollars per year in addition to the four year notary renewal fee.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 9:20am
Msg #377951
Art, don't forget to include the cost of the webcam, it's
setup, the software, and any cost for webcam service, if applicable.
|
Reply by ArtG/KS on 3/30/11 9:29am
Msg #377954
Re: I would not have a problem doing this if the
The webcam is outside of the notary fee paid to the State of KS. I am not familiar with the content of that VA thing anyway. Is there a link to that VA law? I would be glad to look at it and comment further.
Incidently, I do signings, inspections for insurance underwriters and I am a KS real estate agent. To stay in business where the turf is thin you have to diversify. If it gets thinner I can go back to Sub teaching at high school or community college level but at my age I really dont want to do that. I surgery a year ago in April and it only slowed me down for about a month.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 9:42am
Msg #377960
Art, don't get me wrong, I agree about the
diversity - but consideration also has to be given to the *cost* of that diversity and whether it will pay off in the end.
I think the second post in this thread has a link to the bill.
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 9:45am
Msg #377961
I don't think that the startup costs would be significant
I bought a audio/video webcam that included software for $13 at my local Big Lots.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/11 9:48am
Msg #377962
I have one on both laptops.
However, I predict that this is not about making it possible for reg. e-notaries to be able to provide this service...that there is a money making technology there, somewhere. Secure connection required?
I could get busy doing webcam notarizations today. But, that's now what this is about. There's going to be more to it.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 9:53am
Msg #377964
If you recall, one of the major supporters (and pushers)
of that bill OWNS a company that sells the software programs for these...
Nah..no conflict of interest there..
And thanks..I stand corrected on the cost - thought they were more expensive than that..
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 9:13am
Msg #377947
I can maybe see that under certain circumstances. n/m
|
Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/30/11 10:33am
Msg #377970
I still just don't see the cause for uproar.
For a possible analogy - I'm thinking of how many use TurboTax (and the like). These on-line tax programs use similar methods to ensure you ARE the person you say you are, but those methods are considerably less than those required by the HB 2318. I.E. TurboTax is far LESS secure with regard to your identity, yet I hear no public out-cry against it; I have not seen evidence of wide-spread fraud (actually have never read of any fraud relative to its use). I would think the information exchanged w/in a tax program is sufficient to cause plenty of grief, should it end up being used fraudulently.
The IRS can cross-reference info it has with what is provided by Turbo-Tax (via you). This can also be done with the rules outlined in HB 2318 - with my understanding, the person obtaining certification of their ID via the outlined methods establishes an 'account' with that propriator; when their ID is used through the proprietary software, what they input is cross-referenced with the previously obtained/verified data. That's the slim version - the PIV requirements go levels beyond that, as do those involving biometrics. (BTW, I see little chance of Joe Public obtaining a PIV anytime soon - far too Orwellian for public consumption).
The arguments relative to web-cams enabling someone standing just off-camera pointing a gun to the signer's head - do you feel this is more likely than a person in an upstairs bedroom holding a gun to the signer's spouse's head, out of your vision?
A lot of people had issue with the personal recognition part - but for that to be a valid argument, I think it would have to take ALL personal recognition to task (both in-person, and on video). JMHO.
The unintended consequences - those are always the kicker, but hard to foresee. I've looked at this a long time and come up blank, but ...I'm nobody special. My own worthless prediction is that this will bring some logistical relief to interstate & international commerce, but isn't likely to have a large impact on the notary and/or signing agent world for quite a few years. Considering these methods of identification certification are NOT new, having been used by government & commerce for well over a decade - and most of us never even heard of these methods - I'm not surprised at all that it's finally worked its way here.
|
Reply by NJDiva on 3/30/11 10:53am
Msg #377976
Re: I still just don't see the cause for uproar.
"The arguments relative to web-cams enabling someone standing just off-camera pointing a gun to the signer's head - do you feel this is more likely than a person in an upstairs bedroom holding a gun to the signer's spouse's head, out of your vision?"
How about it's a TWIN? Do you take fingerprint or the right thumbprint at the very least? There are people that I have encountered that have a twin and their identity was used, i.e., they got stopped for a driving offense, their electric or other utility was cutoff and they were unable to establish enough credit to resume or open an account.
This is a very real problem. I took a webinar recently that stated (if I understood it correctly) that NY and NJ have the highest identity fraud issues in the country. Hence, I take a right thumb print for every notarization I do (especially for real estate.) No one will accuse me of not taking Due Diligence. I've actually been doing that for a while but when I heard that, I felt very validated; sometimes I questioned whether I was doing the right thing-even legally-I know that I am and can but I still felt very uncomfortable when I first started.
|
Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/30/11 12:40pm
Msg #377988
thumbprint would be another bio-metric, no? n/m
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/11 11:47am
Msg #377984
Another possible analogy...different.
Ancient rule: Don't take an ack over the phone.
Why can't I if I know the signer's voice?
I daresay that I can recognize the voice of all of all the people in my building who need notarizations done regularly. Why can't they send me a document by email, call me and tell me they swear, acknowledge, etc.? Why do I have to make them personally appear before me?
The reason that this has never become okay is because there was not greed behind the bill to push a new" form of technology" that anyone would have to buy. If there had been, then this notarizing by technology would have been the norm a long time ago. However, no entrepreneur could come up with a good way to capitalize on a phone call and fax machine.
The approved visual technology is as reliable as hearing the voice of someone you know is.
It is my jaded opinion that this is all about money.
Thoughts?
|
Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/30/11 12:38pm
Msg #377986
No dispute on the motivation
No doubt it's about money - what isn't?! I think it's more about the ease of moving/making money in existing commerce than it is about any major new money venture, but most definitely it's about the money.
As for the telephone analogy - it doesn't meet the test. There's no means of cross-referencing a pre-certified identity over the phone. That's my whole point with my opinion about VA's bill - in all the months we've been poking at this bill, I'm just not finding the same scary monsters a lot of others are. It's NOT a matter of sitting in front of a web-cam and holding up your Driver's License - and I think that's the impression some people might have. When we first got wind of this, I was of the same mind-set, 'this CAN'T be real!' I went looking for glaring holes in their proposal, and just didn't find any.
The big a-ha moment (well, hours) for me was in reading ALL the ID requirements of each referenced method contained in the Bill. Considerable stuff. FAR beyond the security of what we rely upon in our normal, face-to-face interactions (of course, IMO). Will fraud be wiped out of the dictionary? Never. But it would seem (IMO) to be far more difficult to fraud biometrics, or a Federal ID confirmed/contained w/in a proprietary system, or a PIV. Fraud a D/L? We pretty much know people do that rather commonly.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 1:08pm
Msg #377991
I honestly see where this could be a very
convenient tool - as long as it's strictly regulated. I just anticipate so many opportunities for fraud.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/11 1:56pm
Msg #377999
Believe me, I'm getting read/ positioned for it. n/m
|
Reply by James Dawson on 3/30/11 2:12pm
Msg #378000
Re: I honestly see where this could be a very
I can see a bunch of minimun wage people in a sweat shop notarizing Doc all day. Calls routed to them via a switching machine the has nationwide coverage, "Please hold, the next available notary profession will assist you", please hold.
Or an ad, "work from home, earn a bazillion a year by becoming a team member of our nationwide notary bank, all you do install our notarization kit ( after paying a minimal apparatus leasing fee) to your home computer and we will refer calls for service to you".
That's what I can see.
|
Reply by MattH_NOVA on 3/30/11 6:42pm
Msg #378045
Re: I honestly see where this could be a very
Convenient yes! Imagine collecting $40 for 5 minutes on a computer....is that possible?
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 6:55pm
Msg #378049
Okay..what am I missing..
where do you get $40?
|
Reply by MW/VA on 3/30/11 11:04am
Msg #377978
Yes, it's a bit disappointing, but expected. There was a co. promoting biometric id a couple of years ago. You can be sure there's a connection. Again, it doesn't become law until July, 2012.
|
Reply by James Dawson on 3/30/11 11:42am
Msg #377983
I wonder which state(s) next, any clue whose working toward that?
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 2:46pm
Msg #378004
One thing we must keep in mind is that electronic documents
have not yet really taken off to the point that they will be universally acceptable.
When a document is electronically notarized, it legal as long as it remains in electronic form, i.e. on a computer usually in PDF format. Once you print it out, that printed copy is useless. People who need papers notarized are not going to scan them in and sign them over the computer, because the intended document recipient must be able to accept the electronic document in lieu of a paper one - and I don't know of any state agency in Florida that is accepting electronically notarized forms in lieu of a hard copy being submitted.
This will not replace traditional notarization, not by any means. But this could have a long term impact on the notarial profession if it spreads into other states. I don't see electronic notarization becoming popular in my lifetime, but who knows.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/11 3:46pm
Msg #378010
Robert, what about E-Recording at courthouses?
*I don't see electronic notarization becoming popular in my lifetime, but who knows.*
Doesn't that pave the way?
Many counties in TX are already big into the e-recording.
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 3:51pm
Msg #378011
There's a couple counties in FL that do it too... n/m
|
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/11 3:52pm
Msg #378012
Sorry...too quick...
There's a couple counties in FL that accept e-recordings for mortgages and such also - not just court-related documents.
|
Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/30/11 4:02pm
Msg #378015
Yes, we have E-Recording but every instance I have seen of
it has been original paper documents that have been scanned and submitted. They aren't documents that exist only in electronic form like one that has been electronically notarized.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/11 4:53pm
Msg #378027
They are doing it in Brazoria County TX - enotarization
and recording. This has been in the works since 2007.
http://www.notaryrotary.com/archive/forum/2007/October/eMortgage_News.html (I know that's an old post, but I know the folks involved. It's been happening there for quite some tim.)
In my home town/county. I've been impressed with the County Clerk's work, there. From legal secretary to County Clerk and she's done a bang up job of moving the courthouse to the cutting edge.
The documents are signed on a computer in the title company, then e-recorded. It's going on.
|
Reply by MW/VA on 3/31/11 12:41pm
Msg #378118
Re: One thing we must keep in mind is that electronic documents
I don't see this as applying to loan signings. VA is a heavy military & government state, and VA notaries can notarize a VA document anywhere in the state as well as anywhere in the world as long as it's a VA document. I suspect the application of e-notarizaion being utilized a lot with military & federal government situations. Also, biometric id's are geared more toward that or companies that do business overseas.
|
Reply by LKT/CA on 3/30/11 9:42pm
Msg #378063
I can see it now....
Tuck bedridden grandma away in an old folks home, take her ID info and have somebody else's photo placed over it, scan that, have that other person appear via web cam.......get quitclaim, grant deed or POA notarized via web cam - wipe out grandma's assets while poor, oblivious grandma has no clue she's now insolvent.
Tisk, tisk!!!
|
