Posted by JAM/CA on 3/22/11 2:14pm
Msg #377105

POA and Principal both sign DOT?

Here's the scenario for the wiser loan signers here (Sorry, haven't run into this before). Reverse Mortgage signing where the principal, Mary J. Smith is signing as Trustee on the DOT and the POA, Jane R. Doe is signing for Mary J. Smith as individual. Principal is only signing a few docs and the DOT is one of them.

Since both people appear before me, do both people go into the acknowledgment? My gut says, "Yes".

Normally, when there is a POA, the principal wouldn't be there. Unusual.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 2:54pm
Msg #377108

I'd ask title about this...sounds like someone goofed

Sounds like a NOBS situation (only signing a few docs). If principal is unable to sign the rest of the docs (possibly incompetent?) how is she able to sign the DoT? And, to me, if she can sign the DoT as Trustee she can sign the rest of the docs. They have her signing as Trustee because the Trust can't sign a POA delegating their Trust duties to anyone else.

I'd really seriously check competency and I'd check with title to be sure this is accurate but IMO, yes, if both sign, both names would go into your cert.

MHO

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 2:56pm
Msg #377109

I guess I don’t understand? Is the property in the name of a trust? Like the Mary J. Smith Trust, and Mary J. Smith is signing as trustee of that trust? And on Some docs she is supposed to sign individually as principal, but has given her POA as an individual to her ‘agent’ or attorney-in-fact Jane R. Doe? Sounds odd to me? Why not just have Mary J Smith since she’s there and apparently cognizant, sign in her capacity as trustee for the trust, and individually as principal. No need for the POA, or the signature of the AIF, it just confuses things. JMO

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/22/11 3:26pm
Msg #377127

Thank you for your responses. I'm with you Linda on both people on ACK. The principal, Mary J. Smith is 94 and the property is in trust. The Loan Officer didn't want Mary J. Smith to have to sign 173 pages. The POA is her neice and co-trustee. Mary J. Smith is aware of what is going on, I spoke to her on the phone. The lender set the docs up this way.

I also feel that it just added to the confusion.

Just curious about the ACK. Thanks

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/22/11 3:42pm
Msg #377132

That's what was going to be my guess. And I agree about the Ack.

I've notarized sig's for some folks in their 90's and it's understandable that the mind could be sharp, but the hand not so willing. And on a DOT (and sometimes the Note and a few Riders), they may want it signed both as an Individual and as Trustee - and sometimes as Settlor. Sounds like a smart move on someone's part to spare that senior the effort of signing not only all those pages, but some of them two and three times. Maybe they just wanted her to at least feel a part of the transaction vs. having the niece sign for her everywhere.

However, for the sake of clarity, the "POA" is just the document that gives one person authority to sign for another. The person using that authority is the "AIF" (Attorney In Fact), the niece in your example.

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/22/11 3:59pm
Msg #377135

Thanks Janet and you are of course correct. The niece is the AIF.

Reply by Sha/CA on 3/23/11 11:58am
Msg #377213

Both signers names go on the ack. as individuals, no matter what their capacity. I once had a 90 year old, sign as a POA for her husband as an individual and as a trustee. What a mess, the poor woman, had to take several breaks, because it was so difficult for her to do all the writing. Her daughter was there also, but she did not have POA, or it would have helped to take some of the pressure off of her mother. People just have no idea what kind of an obligation they are under as a POA, until they have to sign their name and anothers, not only as a trustee but also an an individual 150 X 4 times! The signing took almost three hours. I learned it's best to try and find out when accepting the signing or at least before going to a signing, if it may take longer because of a POA, to charge more to compensate for the extra time. JMO.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/22/11 4:16pm
Msg #377142

Coincidentally, I got an email from a tc today about verbage to use in notary language for POA's Trusts. I wish I could pass it on, but it contained one of those paragraphs about not distributing, yada, yada, yada. I'd be sure to check with your hiring party on specific verbage they require.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 4:19pm
Msg #377144

"about verbage to use in notary language for POA's Trusts.....I'd be sure to check with your hiring party on specific verbage they require"

That's not hiring party's call - that's up to the notary's state law.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/22/11 4:20pm
Msg #377146

Yes & no. Not all states address specific language for signing POA or Trust docs.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 4:45pm
Msg #377150

I think States and Lenders differ. Just as some banks will reject a perfectly valid State approved form of a POA, and will only except their in-house form.