Posted by TracyKY on 3/22/11 5:38pm
Msg #377156

Question about pricing -- yes, I'm new...

But please don't hold it against me. I am NOT looking for a get rich fix or full-time income. I am hoping to make some extra money to supplement my income. It's not easy in this economy, even for a two-income household, to raise 3 kids. Anyway, hopefully this isn't a stupid question. I've read on here about not accepting lowball offers and completely agree with the stance that it's hurting everyone in this profession to do so and that we should price according to our geographical area. My question is, short of calling up the competition , how do I find out what the going rate is in my area? Thanks for any advice and suggestions!

Reply by Virginia/PA on 3/22/11 5:50pm
Msg #377159

I don't know what your state's situation is regarding purchases of repossessed homes is. I spoke to a low-ball slow-paying company today because they asked me to perform a signing for them at a low ball rate. I informed them that they had a bad reputation on NotRot for being non-payers and being low ball besides and that put two strikes against them. I was told that the refi business has tanked (at least for that company). Probably has tanked for a lot of companies, since there's only one way but up with interest rates and few people refinance from a lower rate to a higher rate. That said, the signing business as we know it has tanked. So unless you are in an area where there were a lot of repossessed homes that are now being purchased by others or investors, then you won't have much business anyway.
I appreciate your financial dilemma since we are all in this business for the money also.
Perhaps a NotRot search of other KY signers will give some idea of what other signing agents are being paid in your area.
Good luck.

Reply by TracyKY on 3/22/11 8:08pm
Msg #377164

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand times are slow and have taken that into consideration in my decision to only do this part-time. My question, though, is really more about figuring out pricing issues.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/22/11 8:21pm
Msg #377165

Hi, Tracy. I hope you appreciate that it is often the part-timers, "make some extra money" people that hurt the industry, because they are often the one's that accept low-ball (generally speaking, under $100) offers. It's a different scenario for those who don't have to make a living at this, pay all the expenses (printers, papers, etc.) and business licenses & taxes, to boot. Now, I'm assuming that you're referring to loan signings, but there's always general notary work also, depending on what your state allows. I can't knock part-timers. My X & I used to do remodeling, painting, etc. as "side jobs".
We didn't carry licenses, insurance, etc., so again we could price accordingly. IMO it goes with any industry. Good luck to you.

Reply by TracyKY on 3/23/11 7:54am
Msg #377185

I understand what you're saying and thought I prefaced the issue by stating that I agree with the stance of NOT accepting lowball offers as to keep pricing standards high for everyone.

Reply by Stephanie_CA on 3/23/11 10:01am
Msg #377203

I am a Part-time Notary Signing Agent doing signings &

general notary work. I have never felt that I am infringing upon the work of Full-time Signing Agents. I do not take low-ball offers and will often refer business to other Signing Agents in my area. We tend to work together in providing high-quality work.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 9:02pm
Msg #377171

I agree with everything Virginia said, plus with 30% of the houses in the US ‘underwater’ (worth less than is owed) these people can’t refinances because they have no equity. We also have near 30% of the US unemployed (forget Government figures) you can’t get a loan with no job. There are thousands of semi-desperate people trying to supplement their incomes by working part time, and see this business as easy to get into, needing virtually no training or capital. The entire industry (Title/lending/real estate/mortgage/signing) is doing less than half of what it was doing, and there are twice as many people trying to do it. Many are no longer in business, some just barely surviving, some about to fail. A very bleak picture. You are starting into a failing business. I see the future as the past, the few re-finance, and purchase/sales that are done will be handled by your local Title Companies with little need for Mobile Notary Signing Agents. All that said, there is no need for you to try and start into this business taking job offers if you get them for less than it costs you to do them. You need to calculate your direct and indirect costs, and then charge for your time. What your time is worth is up to you. Many here charge $100 to do a standard e-mail ‘closing’ ( print the docs (2 copies) drive to the appointment, present the closing (get the docs signed and notarized) and deliver the signed package to a courier for delivery (maybe some fax-backs)I’d say total time depending on distance traveled, traffic, parking, borrowers familiarity with the process takes an average of three hours time. Some will (apparently) do this for $50? I charge $125. At this fee I make less than the average hourly wage, and I don’t get enough business to call it full time work.
Good Luck!

Reply by TracyKY on 3/23/11 8:16am
Msg #377187

Thanks for the pricing info.

Reply by TracyKY on 3/23/11 8:12am
Msg #377186

Thanks to all for your replies. I do appreciate it, but it seems a bit contradictory to other posts I've seen recently wherein people were encouraged to pursue this part-time instead of full-time as the market is so slow. That's my intention. This may not be my "full-time" job, but it doesn't mean it isn't necessary to my situation. I actually don't have a full-time job. I work part-time in a state government position in which my salary was cut due to mandatory furloughs this past fiscal year. For the next fiscal year, that salary cut will double. I also babysit part-time, and have always paid taxes on my income. So this is not something I think is an easy fix, no taxes, no expenses, etc. I, too, have to invest in a good laser printer, buy paper, supplies, etc. I learned long ago with a cake decorating business I had (before cake decorating was all the rage) that I don't like working for less than I'm worth. I have no intention of taking lowball offers. I thought I covered that in my original post. Honestly, this has less to do with undercutting competition and more to do with valuing my own time and worth. This seems to be a great forum to search through for the occasional helpful post, but it seems to be lacking in actual support. It's a bit disappointing, frankly.

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/23/11 8:37am
Msg #377188

Re: Disappointing?

Just curious...what exactly were you expecting in the way of 'actual support' from this forum?

Reply by TracyKY on 3/23/11 8:52am
Msg #377190

Yes, disappointing.

First of all, I expected a simple answer to my question, not a monologue on why this is a terrible business to get into in the first place. That's my decision to make and it's already been made. If my question had been, "Should I consider this business as a line of work?" then by all means, give me your input. But it was not. I've read alot on this forum and posted little, main reason being some of the responses I've seen to simple questions or inquiries. They can be quite rude and demeaning. I have also seen very kind answers and people who seem to go above and beyond to help, even offering up a phone number to discuss the question further. I believe in helping people when I can, sharing my experience with people just starting out (I did this plenty on another message board with a different business), and offering encouragement and support to anyone who genuinely needs it, with business issues or just in general. That's what I expected.

Reply by Chrissy/NC on 3/23/11 9:30am
Msg #377195

Re: Yes, disappointing.

Good answer Tracy regarding what you expected and good luck to you! I agree under a 100 is low balling and it seems a lot of notaries who started out in it's hey day just can't believe times have changed!

Reply by MW/VA on 3/23/11 9:33am
Msg #377196

Re: Yes, disappointing.

While you may not appreciate it, I think everyone was trying to give an honest picture of the business. Yes, we are helping if we give realistic expectations. When it comes to fees, no one ever provided me with a list & I had to get a feel for what the market would bear in my area. Your choice to get involved in this business is entirely up to you as well as what you fee schedule is. Good luck.

Reply by Darlene Fontenot on 3/23/11 9:47am
Msg #377200

Re: Yes, disappointing.

I appreciate the realisic expectations. But what is a good reference point when it comes to fees. I am also a "Newbie" an am not looking for the get rich quick scheme. Just some advise!

Reply by Les_CO on 3/23/11 10:06am
Msg #377206

Darlene

I think the fees charged by a Notary Signing Agent, depend a great deal on their location. A notary in San Francisco, CA may charge more, but make less than a notary in Lincoln Nebraska. Your fees should be enough to cover your costs (direct and indirect) and your time. I post my fees so I don’t mind telling anyone what I charge.
I charge $125 for a standard e-doc refi, depending on time of day, and distance traveled, and signing location. For general Mobil Notary work from nothing to $85.
It’s your business you can charge what you want. If you are thinking $300 for a std e-doc refi you will probably get no jobs, if your thinking $50 you may get more jobs, but you will be working at a loss. JMO
Good Luck!

Reply by Darlene Fontenot on 3/23/11 10:25am
Msg #377208

Re: Darlene

Thanks, Les I appreciate the information.

Reply by desktopfull on 3/23/11 1:40pm
Msg #377251

Re: Yes, disappointing.

Some people just get upset when faced with the truth and live in the land of denial. However, we could have responded like the NNA flyer and told about how rich you could become overnight as a NSA, but that would have been anything but honest, huh?

Reply by Les_CO on 3/23/11 9:47am
Msg #377201

Re: Yes, disappointing.

I think many here have told you the truth. You must invest (imo) in a good dual tray laser printer, and a back-up laser printer (maybe an all-in-one printer(capable of printing letter, and legal) scanner/fax, a good computer, and a back up computer (maybe a laptop for e-signings) two phones, a fast internet connection (to download docs) and good dependable transport. If you have all this it’s no big deal, but it is necessary to the business, and should be included in your cost of doing business, as should be your ‘office’ space…even if you work out of your home. You are inexperienced, and surrounded my many experienced people doing this work. Usually someone needing a NSA will use an experienced person over an inexperienced one for obvious reasons. This ‘job’ isn’t hard, but it requires a lot of knowledge, and absolute attention to detail. Most in this business have had a long background in the lending/real estate/title business, so you with no experience, and little knowledge of the many intricate, and unique nuances involved in this line of work, to say nothing of the legal ramifications that could happen if you make a mistake, are going to compete with experienced, well established (many with years of contacts/friends still in the Title business) well equipped people, for almost non-existent work.
I wish you good luck. I just think you should look at things as they are, not as you hope they are, or someone selling something has told you. Hopefully you will get one/two jobs a week, and that will be enough to help your financial situation. Just remember to equate all your costs, and your time when considering your fees.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/23/11 2:35pm
Msg #377267

Very Well Said Les

Please keep in mind it's nothing personal against you. I would hope that NO ONE would wish anything but luck and success in all you do. But as Les so graciously stated, the market is more or less INUNDATED with NSA's at this point. There seems to be a whole lot of undercutting going on, hence the title companies and SS's are easily getting away with paying us much less than we are worth. As Les said, the market is dying at this point and it's not so easy for those of us that have this as our only means of income to amicably share what took us YEARS to learn.

I applaud you for asking what a reasonable fee would be. I wish I had done that when I started. I most definitely was one of those that ignorantly accepted those lowball fee's. I try not to accept anything below three digits.

It took me a VERY long time to get established and because of that reason, it left me no other choice but to accept lowball fees for a while. So although you have every intention of keeping your fees within our expectations, our experience has shown us that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and we're all left with losing business to under cutters or acquiescing to lower fees. I have my limits to how far down I'll go, but ugh, it's so frustrating.

I am not saying YOU will accept those lowball offers. Please know that.

Again, it's not personal. We all have to do what we need to do. You don't live in my area, so honestly I have nothing to gain or lose if you start in the business. It doesn't affect me in the least. However, I can tell you that when people start asking me about my business I tell them that it's proprietary information which I do not share . It's a very competitive business when it's your livelyhood. The NNA will tell you "there's plenty of business to go around." That is an out and out lie. There ISN'T plenty of business to go around. And those of us that need it for our bread and butter get frustrated with them professing that so that they can sell their training seminars. As you said, there are no jobs out there. What are we, that have had this as our only source of income, to do ? How are we to supplement our income? Maybe with that being said, you can empathize and understand why SOME of us "longtimer" CNSA's would not feel so forthcoming or "welcoming." lol

A couple of things/expenses to consider besides what was mentioned above:


1) You want to have E&O Insurance.
Many notaries are now being taken to court. There is still a whole lot of fraud being perpetrated in the mortgage/lending/real estate industry. Whether you did everything perfectly or not, you will still be named in a law suit and will have to prove your innocence. That means you will have to pay legal fees at the very least. You could potentially lose your home and anything else they can sue you for...

2) Whether you're part time or full time, you want to keep a Notary Log. This is no joke.
How else are you going to prove that you performed due diligence without the proof...The Notary Journal?

Another reason that there might be cynicism from veterans is that there is WAAAAY too much hand holding from some companies (and don't you know that MOST OF THEM are usually the lowball companies...lol). It is my understanding that they have to do that because of the issues they have with inexperienced people in the biz (and that's what they get for lowballing us in the first place!!!) The problem with that is that it's a reflection on ALL of us. These companies don't know who's experienced and who's not (until you get established that is) so we all get penalized with lowball offers.

I'm curious, what happened to the cake decorating biz? If I baked (or even cooked for that matter...lol) I might consider that as a way to supplement my income. In this day and age, it seems like there are more opportunities for parties than for refi's...lol.

I sincerely wish you only the best. To reiterate and to answer your question, I would not charge any less than $***.00.

Wishing you much prosperity, health and wealth!!!

Cheryl

Reply by Les_CO on 3/23/11 3:52pm
Msg #377288

Re: Very Well Said Les

Thanks for covering some of the things I missed....Just goes to show...It's a complex business.

Reply by TracyKY on 3/23/11 8:47pm
Msg #377321

Re: Very Well Said Les

Les & NJDiva,
Thank you both for your insightful and informative answers. I truly do appreciate it and it is extremely helpful for me. I feel like I have gotten off on the wrong foot here and I want to apologize. I think I reacted a bit too strongly in my earlier posts. I do appreciate and understand the many of you rely on this as your main source of income and times have been slow for some time. I truly hope things pick up for all of you.

As for the cake business, I just made the decision about two months ago to discontinue my business and only do cakes for family and close friends. It was much the same as in the NSA business -- customers wanted an "Ace of Cakes" cake for a WalMart price. I realized some time ago that I was either losing money or barely breaking even on most orders and I was not having fun anymore making the cakes because I resented the fact that I was spending so much time away from my family making a cake for practically nothing. People (and I used to be one of them) have no idea how much time, money and talent goes into cake decorating. I've heard, "Well, it's only flour, sugar and eggs, right? How much can that cost?" Now, if a "friend of a friend" wants a cake for me, I price accordingly. If they want it bad enough they pay and I happily make it. If not, I'm totally fine with that, too. When I make for family & close friends I generally charge just enough to cover ingredients, but that is by my choice and I'm okay with that.

So again, to all who responded, thank you and I do appreciate the words of advice and wish you all the best as well!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/24/11 2:26am
Msg #377330

Re: Very Well Said Les

""Well, it's only flour, sugar and eggs, right? How much can that cost?"

LOL!!! Which is another way of saying that they have absolutely no respect for your time and or no understanding of how a business works. Reminds me of some of the stuff we get from ss from time to time:

"There's just a couple of signatures to notarize..." [out of the 150 page package]

"It's only 25 miles away from you..." [as the crow flies - if that crow can reach enough altitude to get over the mountain between you and the borrower's location]

"There are just a couple of pages to fax back..." [a couple as in 25-50 or more]

"We always pay net 30..." [from the time we finally get paid by our client, if our bookkeeper isn't on vacation, and if all the stars align perfectly]

I bet the rest of you could come up with a few more. Bottom line, I hate to say it, but you're very likely to run into much the same kind of challenges in this business as you did in the other one.

Reply by Stephanie_CA on 3/23/11 10:05am
Msg #377205

Tracy,

Since you have decided to take on this work on a part-time basis, I wish you nothing but the best. While this industry is oversaturated in some areas, I'm sure you'll be able to complete at least a few signings monthly along with some general notary work. In any case, good luck and I wish you nothing but the best.

Reply by Frank/NC on 3/23/11 9:12am
Msg #377192

If you just read this forum often perhaps every day, you will get the best idea of what others are charging. For most of us it has been a matter of a lot of time and effort to get customers and there is no one who will give up their pricing schedules. The whole thing in this business, I guess as well as others, is a big learning curve that takes a lot of time and effort.