Posted by Jim/AL on 3/22/11 9:14am
Msg #377029

Should marital status be included in Acknowledgment?

Yes, I got my answers (THANKS ALL) on AIF and I will conform with requests for the additional verbiage, still not convinced on why, but if it is legal to do then no problem.

I still have a really hard time adding "husband and wife" or "a married man/woman" and terms related to marital status. How would I determine this?

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 9:20am
Msg #377030

That I don't do. None of my business, and how do they prove it?

Reply by SharonMN on 3/22/11 11:16am
Msg #377063

It is required by law in MN to include "husband and wife" in the ack if two married persons join in together in acknowledging a doc. I just ask and take their word for it.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 3:29pm
Msg #377128

In Minnisota

can you also “just take their word for it” regarding their identity?

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/22/11 7:47pm
Msg #377161

sharon the notary block is your testimony under oath that what is in that notary block is the truth...how do you know it is the truth with out searching the county records and what if they got a divorce that day but it is not yet docketed......it is a pet peeve of mine when document makers pre fill a notary block that belongs to me......that is not their right......also it is not their right to tell me to add their status......i refuse to do it , and if it is pre printed i strke it.....in 22 years i hve only had 1 lender call the title co on it and the title co agreed with me and then the lender called me and i said call the sos, and the lender did and the sos agreed with me and the lender relented, [they just didn't know], and now the lender [mortgage banker] is out of business......

Reply by SharonMN on 4/12/11 10:29am
Msg #379493

Re: Should marital status be included in Acknowledgment?(MN)

I'm just following my state's laws (Minnesota), which are as follows:

358.14 MARRIED PERSONS.
No separate examination of each spouse shall be required, but if husband and wife join in and acknowledge the execution of any instrument, they shall be described in the certificate of acknowledgment as husband and wife; and, if they acknowledge it before different officers, or before the same officer at different times, each shall be described in the certificate as the spouse of the other.

We have no guidance on how to determine whether they are husband and wife. In fact, we have no specific requirements as to ID in MN either.

358.42 NOTARIAL ACTS.
(a) In taking an acknowledgment, the notarial officer must determine, either from personal knowledge or from satisfactory evidence, that the person appearing before the officer and making the acknowledgment is the person whose true signature is on the instrument or electronic record.

(f) A notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose true signature is on a document or electronic record if that person (i) is personally known to the notarial officer, (ii) is identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the notarial officer, or (iii) is identified on the basis of identification documents.

Reply by PAW on 3/22/11 9:22am
Msg #377031

Short answer ... no.

There's a big difference between "representative capacity" and "status". Capacity can, and should be, shown in any acknowledgment except where prohibited by law. However, "status" is a horse of a different color. It is not 'representative' status, but actual status and is not up to the notary to validate status. So status is not included in acknowledgments or jurats. For example, a deed or mortgage may show "Jack Jones and Sarah Jones, husband and wife", but the acknowledgment would only show "by Jack Jones and Sarah Jones".

Reply by MW/VA on 3/22/11 4:19pm
Msg #377145

I think PAW's explanation is the best! n/m

Reply by dickb/wi on 3/22/11 7:50pm
Msg #377162

AGREED.....[with wmphasis].....%110................. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 3/22/11 9:24am
Msg #377032

I've never included that on the ack & wouldn't. The only place I see that is on the DOT or marital status affs, because marriage affects title to property & vesting. Again, IMO it has nothing to do with the notarization. Two individuals appear, sign, & I notarize their signatures.

Reply by Jim/AL on 3/22/11 9:54am
Msg #377037

True, usually seen in DOT/Mortgage verbiage. Many times already printed when docs received.

I have always crossed out marital status and initialed. On any CitiMortgage/FASS docs that I have done this too, I get a strike against me for the error. No matter how many times I explain it to them I am wrong.

Other docs in package should cover marital status for signers to choose and us to acknowledge the choice.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 10:34am
Msg #377041

I never change anything printed on the docs, with the exception of the venue in the notarial block that may be incorrect, and the date of my signature if it’s preprinted, and incorrect.

If the property address is wrong, and the borrower insists I let THEM line through correct and initial, same with RTC, or incorrect date beside below their signature. If the guy is single, and it says “a married man” I let him change it if he insists. (I also suggest they call their LO, or Title first before making any changes, and suggest they don’t. I say there is a limited POA in this package giving Title the right to correct any scriveners errors, let them do it and If it isn’t to your liking, you have three days to cancel this transaction

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 10:36am
Msg #377042

"I say there is a limited POA in this package giving Title the right to correct any scriveners errors, let them do it and If it isn’t to your liking, you have three days to cancel this transaction"

True..but the OP was asking about marital status in the *acknowledgement* - and IMO the Ltd POA does not cover that and does not allow them to make changes to our notarial certs. Certificate corrections are our domain only....

MHO

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 10:41am
Msg #377045

Thought he said “in the DOT/Mortgage verbiage”?

Reply by Jim/AL on 3/22/11 10:45am
Msg #377046

To clarify question "in the DOT/Mortgage ack verbiage"

Do u allow marital status in our acknowledgment area?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 10:47am
Msg #377047

No..I cross it out.. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 10:47am
Msg #377048

And to clarify - I cross it out of *all* certs in pkg... n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 10:50am
Msg #377050

Re: And to clarify - I cross it out of *all* certs in pkg...

Okay got it. I agree! (as per my first answer)

Reply by Les_CO on 3/22/11 10:57am
Msg #377055

and If pre-printed incorrectly I also change the name/date n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 3/22/11 10:36am
Msg #377043

Same here

Reply by jnew on 3/22/11 10:47am
Msg #377049

I think the SS and TC should be trained concerning proper notarization procedures. I went to the local recorder's office to see if some of my deadbeats recorded their mortgages and was surprised to see that someone had changed my acknowledgment to include the marital status of the borrowers. Their attitude toward this is essentially "so what" this is what the lender requires, or some such

Reply by BrotherOwner on 3/22/11 12:03pm
Msg #377069

I agree with jnew. If you have looked at your docs after recording, MANY have marital status added by a mysterious hand, not your own. I'd venture it probably happens more often not. Robo status signers anyone?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 12:22pm
Msg #377075

In FL our statutes are clear that there are to be no

changes made to our certificates once we leave the signers - wonder what kind of action our AG would take against companies that do that (I specifically don't say our SOS because I already know that answer)- of course, precipitated by the notary's formal complaint.

Hrrmm...interesting thought...

Reply by Julie/MI on 3/22/11 1:04pm
Msg #377088

The reality of the AG

I have a hunch that if any judge, police officer, attorney general, governor, senator, representative, secretary of state et al had a mortgage that was executed and that the notary block reflected a marital status or poa verbage after the fact, that they wouldn't give two hoots.

If you do inquire, Linda, I'm curious to hear the response.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/22/11 1:06pm
Msg #377089

I tend to agree, Julie...and I wouldn't even

contact them about it on a speculation "what if..." - I'd need to see it happen to one of my certs before I pursued it - and I hope I never do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/22/11 11:08am
Msg #377058

Outside of my usual answer....considering I'm in California... which would definitely be NO.... I'd also say no. Not sure why one's marital status matters in the notary's acknowledgment verbiage. TO me, it seems that by doing so, you are not only certifying their identity but their marital status. How can you do that without authenticating their marriage documents?

That's one of the reasons I love the California only allows us to put the signer's name in there... no capacity. It helps avoid issues, imo.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/22/11 5:35pm
Msg #377155

This just DRIVES ME INSANE!

Nothing that we can't verify, confirm or attest to should be included in our notarial cert, that just makes sense, right?

HOWEVER ...you have title & lender folks INSISTING that you play by some arbitrary golden rule - that the "verbiage" on the front/back of the mtg match what's in the notarial cert.

On top of THAT, you have Recording Clerks who also think this golden rule is valid.

The recording statutes (all I've read, & I've read MANY) don't use the term "verbiage", but use the word "NAME"! The person's NAME on the front & back must match what's in the cert. A NAME isn't their capacity, and isn't their marital status (both of which are IMPOSSIBLE for me to certify, verify, or attest to!)

It's a quandary. I have the actual recording clerk's refusal to record on a mtg, stating that the names didn't match - they DID, but my cert did not include status (as Trustee of the blah blah blah Trust). I tried unsuccessfully to put the clerk's toes to the fire with my simple request: Please tell me HOW I can verify, confirm or attest to the fact that Joe Blow IS an authorized Trustee of this trust? FIRST of all, I don't ever SEE the Trust and second of all, if I did and I read it and I determined he WAS an authorized Trustee ....how is that NOT UPL?!

So. Serious brain-drain going on out there (not isolated, it's pretty wide-spread IMO). What I do to please all the masters is to word things so that the SIGNER is giving the status or capacity, not ME. "Joe and Janet Whomever, who represented themselves as husband and wife."

I remember not all that long ago the NASS was discussing this very concept, and their agreed opinion was that ANYTHING written in a notarial cert had best be a fact that the notary could prove, to the best of their ability.

Done. Just so you know, Jim, I share your line of logic and exasperation!