Posted by Dany Blan on 5/28/11 8:23pm
Msg #384607

Fradulent signing???

Hi, I signed my loan docs and my lender was the one who notarized the docs. He used the escrow officers stamp as he is not a notary. He made the excuse she was busy and we needed to get this done. I didn't say anything at the time, but I believe this is fradulent. How does this affect the ownership of my house? I am now questioning my entire loan and wondering if I am a victim of predatory lending. Does anyone know if this kind of fraud signing is a sign of predatory lending?

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/28/11 8:36pm
Msg #384610

Dany are you a notary or are you just someone looking for for an answer to the question about the escrow officer's actions from notaries?

Yes, according to the law, as you described the situation what the escrow officer did was illegal. (I am not an attorney, just a notary )

Reply by Dany Blan on 5/28/11 8:55pm
Msg #384612

No, I'm not a notary, just looking for advice.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/28/11 9:26pm
Msg #384616

First I should clarify my response a bit. I accidentally attributed the illegal act to the escrow officer when it should have been attributed to your "lender" (loan officer, or their representative maybe?).

My reference to the <"lender's"> actions being illegal was limited to the use of the notary seal (and I assume the forgery of the real notaries name). I should have included that in my response as well.

When did this take place? Did you just recently close on your home?

------------------------

*** "How does this affect the ownership of my house? ****

For this questions, for legal reasons, you will have to consult with an attorney (I would recommend a real estate attorney). Only a licensed attorney can legally provide you with legal advice.

*** "I am now questioning my entire loan and wondering if I am a victim of predatory lending. Does anyone know if this kind of fraud signing is a sign of predatory lending?" ***

The situation, as you described, does not seem to me to fall under "predatory lending" as that is a term used to describe different actions by the lender and has more to do with the terms of the loan and other issues. The attorney you consult with should be able to help you with this one as well after he sees the paperwork from your loan.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/28/11 9:01pm
Msg #384614

The best advice is to see an attorney.

I am not an attorney. In my opinion, predatory lending is something entirely different. It has too do with high fees and high interest rates.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/11 10:08pm
Msg #384617

Definitely see an attorney... none of us here can really give you legal advice.

HOWEVER... it looks like you're in CA, right?

If you're concerned about the legitimacy of the notarization, you can file a complaint with the CA Secretary of State. To do so (and to strengthen your case) you'll need to provide copies of the notarized documents.

Also, if you're in CA, then you should have signed a journal and left a thumbprint (if one of the documents was a Deed or a Power of Attorney). You can request a copy of that journal entry from the notary, and by law they have to respond within 15 business days of your written request. If you have copies of the notarized documents, you can get that notary's commission number. If you wish, I can help you find the contact information for that notary -- state law requires us to keep it current and on file with the SOS.

If you didn't sign the journal or if that notary doesn't respond, you can include this in your complaint to the SOS.

It may take some time, but the SOS does follow-up on these complaints, and they DO investigate them.


As to the validity of your loan contract? That's up for a court to decide and you'll need an attorney to help you with that.... but if you feel somebody used another notary's seal, then that's illegal and should be looked at. It is against the law for a CA notary to allow anyone to use their seal... as it is for somebody to notarize something if they are not, in fact, a notary or other authorized official.


You can file a complaint using the information at: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/file-a-complaint.htm

Be sure to note that the SOS's office cannot help you with your legal issues... the complaint is solely for them to investigate improper acts of it's notaries --- and if you feel something was wrong, you SHOULD complain.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/28/11 10:40pm
Msg #384618

Notary & Lender - both broke CA notary law

Page 7 of the handbook: Gov't Code section 8228.1 A notary public is guilty of a misdemeanor if the notary public willfully fails to keep his or her notary public seal under the notary public's ***direct and exclusive control*** or if the notary public willfully surrenders the notary public's seal to ***any person not authorized to possess it***.

There is no one I know authorized to possess my seal but moi. My seal is under lock and key (or combo lock) at ALL times. Definitely file a complaint against this Notary to the CA Secretary of State. No excuse whatsoever for anyone to have her seal. Not only would I not have allowed this signing.....I would have canceled the loan - what other crooked behavior has this lender been a party to?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/11 11:24pm
Msg #384622

Re: Notary & Lender - both broke CA notary law

Lisa's right... the seemingly innocent (to them) practice of "borrowing" somebody's stamp/seal is actually one of the biggest issues involved in the robo-signing hullabaloo with the foreclosures. IMO, it's also one of the issues that is being ignored. It's just my opinion, but any notary that allows somebody else to use their seal should be tossed in jail. And in, California... that's a real possibility because we are told in no uncertain terms that our seals need to be locked up and in our exclusive control at all times.

If a lender is willing to make those (to them) small deviations from proper procedure... what else are they doing that's illegal?

As Lisa said, if it were me in that situation, I would have hightailed it out of there without signing. Well, after I took down names and numbers and promptly called the SOS to report it. Thing is, though, the general public doesn't really realize (or care) about that kind of thing. Most people still think that our seals make the document legal.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 5/28/11 11:21pm
Msg #384621

What are your damages?

First, I am not an attorney. However, I think most situations such as yours would require law enforcement. If you are happy with your loan and the terms, then you are probably fine. It doesn't make it right that the lender respresentative and escrow person did what they did but fraud would be ripping you off somehow. Again, I'm not saying it is right because it is totally wrong. If it were me and I liked the terms, I wouldn't want to spend money on an attorney that is going to do nothing for me. And by nothing, I mean, what are my damages? (Assuming the loan parts are all good) If you pay an attorney to say that this was done illegally and spend $500 doing that, you are out $500 and now you go get the same loan and your still out $500. (just making up a figure) Not sure if I am making sense here. The people that need to be contacted are The Secretary of State and law enforcement.

Please let us know what becomes of all of this. Your intuition was correct and I'm glad you listened.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/11 11:27pm
Msg #384623

Re: What are your damages?

The legality of the loan itself is a totally separate issue from an improper notarial act. The Secretary of State could rule it an improper act and it would have no bearing on the legality of the loan.

Notarizations do not make contracts legal or not... courts decide that.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/11 11:37pm
Msg #384626

Re: What are your damages?

"fraud would be ripping you off somehow"

Actually... that's not true. Fraud involves some sort of wrongful deception. IMO, somebody using a notary seal for which they have no authority is, in fact, fraud. This is ESPECIALLY true in CA with deeds of trust. There is a special provision in CA law that elevates certain improper notarial acts relating to a deed of trust a felony (Gov't Code 8214.2). Of course, I don't know if that applies here because we don't know all the details.... but all I know id that when it comes to DOTs, CA notaries are looking at felony level charges.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/28/11 11:32pm
Msg #384624

Given that most people do not have a clue what a notary does and would not know notarial misconduct if it bit them in the nose, why did the loan officer feel it necessary to make all sorts of excuses about why he was using somebody else's stamp? Who would ever know if he'd just kept his mouth shut? The whole thing sounds fishy.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/11 11:41pm
Msg #384627

Wouldn't you notice if you knew your loan officer's name was Jack and he was the one stamping a notary seal on your documents with Jill's name on it?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/28/11 11:58pm
Msg #384629

Who looks? Who cares? If I were actually trying to read the name from the stamped impression, I'd need to put on my magnifying glasses and know exactly what I was looking for and where.

Which reminds me: because no law in CA requires notaries to notarize in front of the signer, why didn't the lender guy just gather up all the docs and go stamp with somebody else's seal back at the office instead of making all these excuses in front of the borrower? Still sounds fishy

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 5/29/11 2:57am
Msg #384631

Just guessing here but it might be a "normal" or "accepted" practice for someone else to "borrow" this, or other, notary's seals as described in that particular TC office (as mentioned, not legal or right to do regardless). If so, sounds like the "lender" may have just mentioned what he was doing and why, almost in passing. Probably not so much to draw attention to what he was doing but an explanation of why there was not another person in front of them as I'm sure the borrower(s) were expecting.

There is the always the possibility that notary may not have known that the "lender" even did this. She would still responsible for her seal not being under her control but she might not even be aware that this has even happened.

"Which reminds me: because no law in CA requires notaries to notarize in front of the signer, why didn't the lender guy just gather up all the docs and go stamp with somebody else's seal back at the office instead of making all these excuses in front of the borrower?"

Even if the notary does not have to apply their seal in front of the signers in CA, the notary still has to have the signer appear in front of them and on any jurat they would have to actually see them sign (and administer the oath). If the notary is unaware of what happened, it is better for her that it was done in front of the borrowers, wouldn't you agree?

Either way, I agree with you that something is wrong regarding the notary process in that office.

Reply by desktopfull on 5/29/11 10:10am
Msg #384646

Not only was the use of the seal illegal, how about the forgery in signing the notaries name? Or doesn't that count either. In Florida right now they are in the process of disbarring attornies for doing the same thing and setting aside foreclosures because they were acquired with fraudulently executed documents. The guy definitely needs to see an attorney and file complaints with the proper authorities.

Reply by Dany Blan on 5/29/11 11:17am
Msg #384653

Thank you everyone for the tips and advice. I am definitely going to seek an attorney and decide my next step after that. I will keep you posted.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/29/11 11:31am
Msg #384655

You should have had an attorney when you bought

the property - and should have been issued a title insurance policy protecting your interests - if you didn't have an attorney for, possibly, THE most important transaction of your life, then shame on you.

I, too, wonder how long ago this was? Recent or quite some time ago?

Since you state you question your ownership of the property, I'd suggest you return to the attorney who represented you in that matter. If no attorney, turn to the title company who issued the policy for clarification. As for the lien on the property I don't think it would be invalidated - the Grant deed transferred the property to you and you signed papers borrowing money to purchase the property - the intent to lien the property until the debt is repaid is clear and you were not coerced to do so.

I'm hoping beyond hope that this is a sincere concern and not another wild attempt by someone to get out of the debt owed. No accusations being made here but it was my first thought when reading the OP....

JMO

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/29/11 12:16pm
Msg #384660

Attorneys are not required in CA. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/29/11 2:05pm
Msg #384668

For a purchase? That's just insane... n/m

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 5/29/11 9:32pm
Msg #384689

Not required in CA either. n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/30/11 8:42am
Msg #384719

Okay..I may have mis-spoken....

Not saying it's "insane" that an attorney is not required - but I think it's "insane" that anyone would purchase real estate without an attorney's input and guidance. A refi is one thing but I think it's nuts to not have an attorney involved when purchasing property in ANY state.

Reply by Les_CO on 5/30/11 12:19pm
Msg #384744

Re: Okay..I may have mis-spoken....

As a Real Estate Broker I always advise my clients to use an attorney (I even recommend one) That said, on the last four personal residences I have purchased/sold I have not been represented by an attorney. I guess that's a case of do as I say not as I do?

Reply by Les_CO on 5/29/11 11:36am
Msg #384657

Do you have copies of the documents you signed?
Do you know the name of the person that ’stamped’ the documents you signed, and is it different than the name on the notarial seal, and signature?

Did you read, understand, and actually sign the documents in question? Did you understand that by signing you were agreeing to the terms within the documents, and in some cases swearing to their truthfulness? If you knew what you were signing, and actually did sign the documents, anything else is pretty much a moot point.

Before I went to the expense of obtaining legal counsel, I’d take it up with the lender. If something is amiss let them fix it. I’d say the LO could be in trouble, and the Notary, but I would doubt that their actions would void and written agreements.

What do you want? Are you unhappy with the loan? Or are your worried about some cloud on your title, and any future problems that could cause. Did you get an 'owners' title policy? If the lender can't address your concerns, then I'd get a lawyer.
I’m not a lawyer and this is just my opinion.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/29/11 12:28pm
Msg #384662

If I like the loan, I would report the incident, but I wouldn't want to blow up a loan that was a good thing for me...assuming that you want to pay back your mortgage.

If you bought the house and the seller did not appear and/or the lender stamped anyway, that would be a concern about owning the house for certain.

I would like to know how soon this is after the signing of the loan.

Predatory lending? In my opinion--only if you thought that your terms were A and they were B. A way to get out of the loan if it was not predatory lending? Possibly. But, your signature is still there in agreement. If no parties were actually harmed, someone might be jailed, but you might also have to continue your mortgage payments.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/29/11 12:31pm
Msg #384663

Oh yeah, I'm just speculating--not an attorney.

And, I would get an attorney to review the docs now to see what they say. It's always a good idea to set up an appointment with an attorney to review loan docs, but few people ever do.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/29/11 5:19pm
Msg #384680

It really all depends on your state laws. I know that here in NY an invalid notarization would not invalidate the document (unless you could show that the entire transaction was fraudulent), so it would not have any affect on your ownership, but your mileage in your state may vary.

As far as predatory lending is concerned, that doesn't sound like what this is. More likely a loan officer used to cutting corners to get a deal done. Predatory lending is more about forcing loans on people who really can't afford them. so unless you're in that situation it probably doesn;t apply.

This all begs the question, however - why did you sit there and allow this to happen?? It seems to be a bit late to be wondering how this will affect you. It's probably time to get a lawyer involved.

Reply by Dany Blan on 5/29/11 9:46pm
Msg #384693

We signed between Christmas & New Years. The lender said with offices being closed around the holidays, he was just helping the escrow person out by coming for her. He said they are really good friends. Even before this, my wife didn't trust him at all, but I thought he was knowledgable & nice & I trusted him. But what really has got me wondering & has brought up the signing incident is that my cousin just closed on the same model house around the corner with virtually the same price and the closing costs were thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars less than my closing costs. This has just gotten me to wonder if the lender was hiding something and that's why he signed rather than the escrow officer. I have had no problems with the loan, but now I am questioning everything and brought up my concern about the predatory lending.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/29/11 11:11pm
Msg #384702

Yep...get a lawyer to review them. n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 5/30/11 4:42am
Msg #384707

Adding a few points ....

It's not unusual, particularly now, for buyers/borrowers to do some 'remorseful' research after the fact - it is unfortunate, but not unusual. A good attorney who specializes in real estate & lending law costs the same now (for a forensic analysis) as they'd have cost prior to closing, but the outcome is going to be a whole different animal.

As for the comparision of closing costs - there are myriad reasons that might happen that wouldn't be predatory. Are these different lenders, different loan products, did you have an FHA or pay PMI, did you use different settlement agents (who charge different fees), did you have the same loan amounts, is there a difference in taxes & insurance, a difference in tax prorations (different time of year), did the cousin gain seller concessions or lender credits that you didn't?

I'm just trying to point out that two transactions are rarely apples-to-apples, the only 'same' factors in your instance are purchase price & property, and there are a lot of other factors.

As for the completely illegal use of a notary stamp by another person, and possibly the Loan Officer hiding the fact that HE did the closing himself (quite possibly from both his own superiors and the escrow officer's superiors), and the illegal act of the escrow officer by allowing it (assuming they knew before, had to know after) ...the points made here about any potential harm done are to be considered.

IF (If if if) you would prefer not to hire an attorney, but wanted to pursue getting the facts straight or straigtened out, you could try taking the issues (notary issue, and settlement statements of both transactions, IF all other factors do match) directly to the superiors at each establishment (lender & settlement). TELL them what transpired, ask for clarification, ask for whatever restitution might be called for. Sometimes, it can be easier to just ask - it's not a bad place to begin, and at least it won't cost you anything to try.