Posted by BarbaraL_CA on 5/10/11 11:31am
Msg #382730

Gov't agency certification available?

Does anyone know if a dept with the US Govt issues passport copy certifications? My client's copy certifications by document custodian is not acceptable.... want the notary to certify it. CAN'T DO!

Reply by MW/VA on 5/10/11 11:54am
Msg #382734

I usually tell them to contact the Post Office for info on obtaining a copy of a Passport.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 5/10/11 12:44pm
Msg #382748

No, the government does not do passport copy certifications

One of many reasons why notaries in every state SHOULD be allow to issue certified/attested copies. In Florida, we can certify copies of passports.

Reply by MW/VA on 5/10/11 12:51pm
Msg #382750

Re: No, the government does not do passport copy certifications

I'm in agreement with you on that one, Robert. You can only imagine what would happen since so many notaries can't even handle simple notarizations, much less be responsible for certifying copies of important documents. Again, what's required is that the notary physically witness the making of the copy.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 5/10/11 1:09pm
Msg #382752

Googled and found this... but...

are certified passport records the same as certified passports? I called and left msg.

From:http://travel.state.gov/passport/npic/npic_872.html
Certified Passport Records
Certified copies of passport records may be requested. If you would like a certified copy of a passport record, the certification fee is $50.00. Checks or money orders should be made payable to “Department of State".

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 5/10/11 1:33pm
Msg #382756

Not the same thing

Those "certified passport records" are copies of the person's passport *application*.

The customer has his original passport - the only one in existence. The state does not keep a duplicate original on file from which to make certified copies.

Just explain to him that it can't be done by a California notary. There is no way around it. If a "Copy Certification by Document Custodian" is insufficient, he will need to go to a state where notaries can issue certified copies of passports.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 7:16am
Msg #382833

Re: Not the same thing

*The customer has his original passport - the only one in existence. The state does not keep a duplicate original on file from which to make certified copies. *

Ssshhhh...don't tell the DoS that! They don't see this exactly like you do.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 6:51am
Msg #382832

Barbara, the "preferred" method by the Dept. of State

is to get a copy of the Certified Passport Records through the link that you note.

I know that it has been discussed that “passport records” are not the same as a “passport” but in some cases, clients need the U.S.DoS official passport records with the seal on it. The “passport records” vs. “passport copy” is not an issue according to my sources.

My “best practice” recommendation on this is that if there are no instructions in the notary's state law regarding passport certification, the correct place to get a "certified copy of a passport" is the Dept. of State. The reason for this is that the authentication unit of the notary’s state may not authenticate a true copy statement that is notarized and attached to a copy of a passport, especially in states where notary copy certification is not authorized.

In fact, some state notary administrators are referring people who need an apostille on a copy of a passport to the DoS and refusing to authenticate true copy statements attached to copies of passports..

When going through the Dept. of State, you will not receive an exact copy of the passport. The records on file relating to the passport in question will be returned under official U.S. Dept. of State seal that is embossed on the documents. It will include a picture* of the passport holder on their original passport application and a letter with the signature of the U.S. Secretary of State. The entire package is held together by a grommet. The records also say that if the grommet is not intact the records are null and void. (*The same one that is on his or her passport.)

Here are a couple of quotes from my source file on copying passports. From a DoS attorney…

"Nothing in U.S. law prohibits copying passports (Naturalization Certificates may not be copied) but we prefer that people be referred to Passport Records to obtain a copy of their passport records, which they can request an apostille or regular authentication for, as well. As a general matter we feel it is better to go to the custodian of the original record. We instruct our consular officers to refer inquiries to our website at http://travel.state.gov/passport/npic/npic_872.html.”

"The copy certification route is definitely cheaper and most likely quicker, and since there is no prohibition on photocopying passports we can’t require that people use our preferred method of getting the records from Passport Records. In an ideal world everyone would go to Passport Records to obtain the records from the Department of State as custodian of the original, but we certainly recognize economic and expediency issues. I for one wouldn’t begrudge someone who gets a copy certified and authenticated >>>if that process works for the intended user<<<."

Here are a couple of things to know.
--Some requestors of certified copies of passports may want the official package from the DoS.
--It may take two or three months to get the records from the DoS. If the need is urgent, put it into the notarized statement of request. I think that they look at the reasons to decide on priority.

-- I can’t say it enough that state offices are shying away from authenticating true/correct copy statements, especially on passports. Make a call to the SoS and ask if they will authenticate a true/correct copy attached to a passport. If it is a go, then this is the quickest method.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 5/11/11 8:59am
Msg #382841

I think the DOS doesn't understand WHY people need

copies of their passports (not their passport "records", i.e. their passport application).

People need it for one of several reasons: to prove citizenship, to prove date and place of birth when they don't have a birth certificate, to prove that they were in a certain country at a certain time (people need this more often than you might think). To apply for a marriage license in another country, to adopt a child from another country... the list goes on.

When you request passport records from the DOS, *ALL* you get is a copy of the person's application. I know this because I obtained a copy of my own passport records and that is what I got. When someone needs a copy of their passport, they want a copy of their *PASSPORT*, not a copy of their application. I doubt that this passport application would help you get a driver license (it definitely wouldn't fly in the newly Real-ID compliant Florida)- it is not proof of citizenship - it does not contain visa entry/exit stamps, etc. The signatures of the passport office acceptance agent and his/her notes are redacted from the copy. It is nothing more than an application. Essentially, using this passport application for any official purpose is equivalent to using an "Application for Marriage License" form as proof of a marriage.

The bottom line is, notaries (in the states that allow it) are the only officials that can authenticate a copy of a passport. As hard as the federal government, and even state governments, may try to belittle notaries and take away what little power they have left, sometimes a person needs an authenticated copy of their passport, and the only way they can get one is by going to a state where notaries are authorized to do it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 10:57am
Msg #382853

I understand your point.


I have my own passport records, too. The >authentication certificate< from the USDoS is on top. It is signed by the SoS. Underneath that is a letter that says that it is a copy of the original record. There is my two page application with my photo. The packet includes my passport book number. It has the same info as my passport and is a copy of the the *original* record according to the Dept. of State.

I think that it would do just as well as, if not better than, a notary passport copy for any type of business one might need a passport copy for...except traveling, of course.

As long as you don't need the copy authenticated by a certificate, or an apostille, I think that a passport copy is just fine! But, you probably won't be able to get an apostille or a certificate of authentication on one except in a state that directly addresses passport copy certifying/attesting by a notary.



Also, I hate to get into semantics, but the word authenticate in this phrase, "notaries are the only officials that can authenticate a copy of a passport" might be misleading. Do you have a government source you can share that uses the word "authenticate" in reference to notary attested or certified passport copies?

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 10:58am
Msg #382854

Also, my passport records show that I was born in the US

and that my parents were, as well.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 5/11/11 11:03am
Msg #382856

Re: Also, my passport records show that I was born in the US

Yes, but only because that is what you put on your application. The application is just your statement.

The Merriam-Wester Online Dictionary defines "authenticate" as "to prove or serve to prove the authenticity of", and lists synonyms as "certify", "attest", and others.

If authenticate means "to prove the authenticity of", then it is appropriate - you are certifying that the copy is authentic. JMHO.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 11:33am
Msg #382860

Re: Also, my passport records show that I was born in the US

Thanks. I guess I was looking for a common source that uses it for notaries. I can honestly say that I have never heard it used like you used it, so was just asking.

Otherwise, I think of it like it is used here http://notaries.dos.state.fl.us/notproc7.html, http://www.sos.state.tx.us/authinfo.shtml, or http://travel.state.gov/law/judicial/judicial_2545.html.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 11:37am
Msg #382863

Please explain how the info on the app and the info on the

passport are different. The packet I got with my passport records says,

"Our records verify you were born in Texas on Sept. __, ____. Your United States Citizenship and date of birth are, therefore, a matter of record with the Department of State."

*Yes, but only because that is what you put on your application. The application is just your statement.*

Robert, the passport information is drawn from the application. The application was approved, and a passport was issued. Therefore, it is accurate information. Maybe you don't have the same thing I have because mine is very thorough.

I will always side with the USDoS on this. I have it straight from a very credible source there.

Reply by Robert T. Koehler on 5/11/11 12:10pm
Msg #382872

We will have to agree to disagree

Submitting an application for a passport does not guarantee that your application will be approved. The application is just that - an application. I can't imagine that the passport application - even if certified - would be accepted by any court or government agency as proof of citizenship.

JMHO - and I thank God that we, as Florida notaries, exercising one of the few powers we have, can issue attested photocopies of U.S. passports, social security cards, driver licenses, et al.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 1:45pm
Msg #382883

Re: We will have to agree to disagree

*Submitting an application for a passport does not guarantee that your application will be approved.*

Of course not, Robert. But, like I said, if the passport has been issued and the DoS documentation states the passbook number on the actual authenticated-by-the-DoS documents, then I think we've got a winning copy...and it is already authenticated...it has a USDOS seal on it and a certificate number and everything.

Like I also mentioned, this is only critical when the copy needs an apostille or a certificate of authentication. That's why I won't give up on this discussion.

It is important that we consider that a notary act is not worth the paper it stamped and signed on if the document requires an apostille or certificate of authentication and the same is denied by the notary's state office.

I know for a fact that these are on the list to be turned down in some states.

It's the SoS Offices and the DoS that's saying this. Not me.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 5/11/11 2:10pm
Msg #382893

Re: We will have to agree to disagree

A passport is a universally recognized travel and citizenship document. Especially for people trying to adopt a foreign child - the passport application, even if certified, will NOT be accepted by the foreign government. They want a notarized copy of a passport, period. A notarized copy of a passport MIGHT help you get back into the U.S. if your actual passport is stolen or lost. I'd like to see someone try to get through border patrol travelling on a passport application.

Not to mention, what about in cases where the person needs their passport copy certified to prove they were in a certain country on a certain date? The DOS does not keep those records and has no way of keeping those records.

This is one of many instances where the feds are trying to "not recognize" notaries. I have issued marriage certificates to couples I have married, and they were denied at the Social Security office because, and I quote, "They don't recognize notaries". If they want to only accept state-issued marriage certificates, fine... but they actually told my client that they would have accepted it if the marriage ceremony had been performed by a minister. In other words, they will "recognize" the certificates of ministers who got ordained online but they won't "recognize" the certificates of notaries who are commissioned and sworn officers of the state.

As far as rejection of apostilles - I would like to know where these SOS offices get their legal authority to deny an apostille for a copy that has been properly attested by a notary in accordance with state law. I would think a class action lawsuit, Attorney General ruling, or court ruling is in order.

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/11/11 4:22pm
Msg #382913

Robert, this is not my opinion. The DoS and the SoSs make

the rules. I am just making sure that this topic is properly explored.

*I would like to know where these SOS offices get their legal authority to deny an apostille for a copy that has been properly attested by a notary in accordance with state law.**

I have tried to emphasize in this thread that notaries WITHOUT LAWS that allow them to attest or certify copies of passports are the ones who need to be concerned about this. This is not about Florida.

* I'd like to see someone try to get through border patrol travelling on a passport application. *

I don't think I, or the DoS, ever proposed that a certified copy of passport records would be useful for travel outside of the USA.

*Not to mention, what about in cases where the person needs their passport copy certified to prove they were in a certain country on a certain date? The DOS does not keep those records and has no way of keeping those records.*

Sounds like, to be safe, that person might want to consider preparing an affidavit about their presence and then add the copy of the passport as an exhibit. That's not copy certifying/attesting.

*As far as rejection of apostilles - I would like to know where these SOS offices get their legal authority to deny an apostille...*

This might interest you: from PAW - Msg #379380
Florida is one of those states [that refuses to provide an apostille in certain cases] The FL Secretary of State will provide an Apostille or Certificate of Authority for the following Florida documents: vital record, e.g. birth certificates and death certificates, bearing the original signature of the State Registrar; vehicle titles certified by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles; corporation documents bearing the signature of the Secretary of State; and documents certified by any Clerk of the Court for any county in Florida (the fee for an Apostille on any county certified document is $20).

*This is one of many instances where the feds are trying to "not recognize" notaries.*

Your case is totally different. Yours is a state/local matter.

I don't feel this way at all.

The passport is a federal government document. They can issue them, and they can take them away, and they make the rules. It's not personal against notaries. It is just saying that if your state does NOT allow you to copy/attest passports, then your alternative to assure that the document can be authenticated by the proper authority is the one that I have shared.