Posted by HisHughness on 5/11/11 3:37pm
Msg #382906

You're gonna luv this one

One of my regulars is a company that does loan signings for auto dealers which sell over the Internet. Was asked to handle one today, and the confirmation came with this instruction:

"On this signing, other than our Affidavit of Identity, the dealer has asked that you not notarize any of their documents that come to you in the package. They will take care of it on their end when they have the docs back."

If it was the hiring company giving those instructions, I would not work for them anymore; that calls the company's integrity into account. Since the hiring company was simply passing on the dealer's instructions, and neither is asking <me> to do anything unlawful, I'm gonna do it.

Wonder if the term "robosigner" resonates with that dealer?

Reply by TacomaBoy on 5/11/11 3:52pm
Msg #382909

You're gonna luv this one

It still stinks! I understand that you're not on the hook for anything and you want to maintain the valuable SA relationship with your client. However, further down the road you might be hauled into court under a deposition to testify in a fraud complaint against the dealer by the consumer. I try to avoid this sort of thing because it's very distracting and it can turn into a big black time hole. Good Luck!

Reply by HisHughness on 5/11/11 4:06pm
Msg #382910

Not my role to be a nanny for the signer; not even my role to point out that there might be a remote notarization. Get right down to it, I don't even know that any notarization is <required> for any document I get signed, even if a certification is attached; any certification could be mere surplusage.

I'm not asked to do anything illegal, and I'm not participating in a transaction that itself is inherently illegal or unethical, as in the case of many loan mods. I'm asked to get a document signed.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 5/11/11 4:43pm
Msg #382915

"On this signing, other than our Affidavit of Identity, the dealer has asked that you not notarize any of their documents that come to you in the package. They will take care of it on their end when they have the docs back."

So you will facilitate the signing of documents where you KNOW the signer's signature will be notarized at a later time and place?

IMO, this is enabling a fraudulent notarization to be performed.

As Susie says "I wouldn't pet that dog."

Reply by rengel/CA on 5/11/11 5:02pm
Msg #382917

I'm thinking you are all assuming facts not in evidence. He doesn't even know what all documents are in the package yet. If I were Hugh, I would wait until I received the package and then figure out what all needs to be notarized. IF then I find that this is a shady deal, I would back out. But not until I know what I am dealing with.

My .02

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/11/11 8:01pm
Msg #382939

I'll see you, and raise you 10, Rengel.

Reply by HisHughness on 5/11/11 11:50pm
Msg #382945

This is patently rediculous

***this is enabling a fraudulent notarization to be performed.***

I haven't been asked to swear an affiant, whose signature will later be notarized remotely. I haven't been asked to journal documents. I haven't been asked to to do anything except to get a document signed. I would not know, even if a document came with a notarial certification attached, that such certification is required by the law of the state where it is to be effective.

I have been asked to get documents signed. I do that with some frequency; reverse mortgage apps come to mind. I will get the dcouments signed; if someone else subsequently chooses to do something unlawful with them, that is <their> malefaction, not mine.

Reply by HisHughness on 5/11/11 11:52pm
Msg #382946

Ummmm....ridiculous, not rediculous

I assume one who is being rediculous is being diculous once again.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 5/12/11 8:38am
Msg #382952

Re: This is patently rediculous

"I haven't been asked to to do anything except to get a document signed. I would not know, even if a document came with a notarial certification attached, that such certification is required by the law of the state where it is to be effective."

I don't follow your thinking here. If a document is sent to you with a notarial certificate attached and the person you are to meet with is the only person intended to sign that document, why would you not think that this person's signature is to be notarized?

We notarize signatures on many documents that are not "required by the law of the state where it is to be effective." If a notarial certificate is attached to the document, a notarization is being requested. To be instructed not to notarize, even though a notarial certificate is attached, raises a red flag to me.

In the package you received, other than the one specifically requested notarization, were notarial certificates included for any of the other documents? If so, was it obvious the signature(s) to be notarized were not your signer's signature(s)?

I have been requested to get signatures on documents that would then be signed and sealed by another notary. One such request came from Archer Land Title, who wanted me to take a mortgage and riders to obtain the signature of a non-obligated title holder who had refused to sign the previous day when the borrower signed. He thought he would be obligated to pay the note if he signed, so he wanted to think about it. Archer actually expected me to get his signature and acknowledge both the borrower's and his signature with the previous day's date. I told them I could use the current day's date for both but would not back date. Then they asked me to just obtain his signature and they would notarize it. I refused the request because I did not want to be involved in a fraudulent notarization.

I do not know if the documents you are dealing with are intended to be recorded or not, but if notarial certificates for the signer I am signing are attached and I am instructed not to complete them and told that they will take care of it later, I would refuse the assignment.

Reply by CH2inCA on 5/11/11 5:31pm
Msg #382920

Perhaps the only thing to notarize is the Affidavit of Identity; signed by the borrower. the 'dealer documents' will be notarized when the dealer signs by their notary.

?

The way I'm reading it you do notarize the Affidavit of Identity. Do other docs with borrower signature have notary certs?

Reply by CH2inCA on 5/11/11 5:35pm
Msg #382921

Edit to add...

I was just thinking so, because in a world where stamp happy notaries exist, it may be their way to tell you not to notarize documents that do not apply to your end of the deal.

ok, I'm done.

Reply by mwm143 on 5/11/11 6:04pm
Msg #382923

Why bother to post this???? n/m

Reply by CH2inCA on 5/11/11 9:36pm
Msg #382941

Re: Why bother to post this????

Are you asking me why I bothered to post? :0/

Reply by mwm143 on 5/12/11 8:06am
Msg #382949

Re: Why bother to post this????

Initially it was directed to the OP, however since every single bit of it is pure speculation without any docs in hand and the OP is a veteran agent and wasn't even looking for advice...

Reply by Bravo on 5/11/11 7:20pm
Msg #382936

Hugh, is it also possible that the only doc you'll be asked to notarize is a PofA????

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/11/11 7:24pm
Msg #382937

<<<One of my regulars is a company that does loan signings for auto dealers which sell over the Internet.>>>

Sounds like the company named Maverick Signings. I've done auto loan doc signings for them. Pays in 30 days or less. Yes, the only doc I've ever had the borrower's signature notarized on is the Affidavit of Identity. The rest of the docs are various disclosures and the sales contract. The appointment doesn't take long - about 15 or 20 minutes.

<<<Since the hiring company was simply passing on the dealer's instructions, and neither is asking <me> to do anything unlawful, I'm gonna do it.>>>

I agree. I like working with Maverick and take all I can get. If you are not speaking of Maverick Signings, but another company - then I take back everything I said.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 5/12/11 8:52am
Msg #382953

"Since the hiring company was simply passing on the dealer's instructions, and neither is asking <me> to do anything unlawful, I'm gonna do it. "

So if you believe <someone> is going to be doing something unlawful, why enable them? If their intent is to notarize the signatures later they can deal with the signer directly and not involve you for those documents.

Reply by A S Johnson on 5/12/11 9:26am
Msg #382961

Hi Hugh.
That's what you get for having a law degree from Baylor and the the 'supreme' Texas law school UT.
For all you that don't know Hugh, he is a retired lawyer.
My only thought about this, does the auto dealer have a Limited Power of Att'y from the borrower for auto transactions.
The Aff of Id would be the only doc that needed to be notarized.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/12/11 6:35pm
Msg #383038

This is not a big deal....

Like a loan signing where the borrowers are in one location, and the Lender/Escrow/TC are in another, Notary is found where the borrowers are, get loan package signed and notarized and ship docs to TC.

Same thing with the auto doc signing. Auto dealer in one place, borrower is in another, Notary is found to meet with borrower and docs are signed and notarized (where needed) and docs are shipped to auto dealer.

I completed a signing where a young lady is buying a new car, and mom is co-signing.....auto dealer and daughter are both in Nevada, while mom is here is Southern California. Docs are shipped to Notary near mom in Southern California. Notary get's mom's signature on docs, notarizes as needed, and ships docs back to Nevada.

Easy peasy...

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 5/13/11 12:45pm
Msg #383117

soooo, what's the big deal here....?

Hugh's going to identify & verify the signer's credentials, witness him/her sign this one Affidavit, notarize, sign, and send it off along with the rest of the docs, unsigned, not notarized to whomever, and wait to get paid.

...what the client does afterwards with the docs, NOT his problem as he is correct to say this. And there's no moral qualm or unethical behavior on the part of Hugh should he choose NOT to advise how suspicious this all seems....not HUGH's problem.

I think, the dealership wants to make sure FIRST and foremost, that the signer is who they say they are, then once that person is sitting there in their office, they'll have him/her sign their life away on 50 cabillion auto & finance contracts for a car that's probably wayyyy to over priced.....so anywayz.....