Posted by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 10:59am
Msg #403239

Hire your own notary...

...a coworker is refinancing his house, and he was told, "Hire your own notary". So naturally, he comes to me. I haven't yet seen the package, but here's my question. I know there's usually a "notary fee" listed somewhere, and from the ones I've seen, it's usually around $300. When a borrower has to hire a notary themselves, do they take that charge out of the equation, since they'll be paying at the table? This has never occurred to me before, because this is the first time I've had a BORROWER seek me out vice a title company or signing service. I know the whole "hire-your-own-notary" thing has been discussed before, but apparently I am not using the right key words. Can anyone weigh in as to what happends to the 'notary charge' when the borrowers hire their own?

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 11:00am
Msg #403240

Not advertising, I promise. :) n/m

Reply by Victoria_NJ on 11/9/11 11:09am
Msg #403241

Ideally the HUD-1 Settlement Statement will show your notary charges on it and it will say POCB which means" paid outside of closing by borrower" and the borrower will be responsible for paying you directly.

Or, they can elect to add your fee to the HUD and the bank/title agency will send you a check from them as the bank will roll your fee into all closing costs.

You just need to speak with the lender rep to find out which way it will be listed on the HUD and who you can expect a check/payment from.

Hope that helps.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 11:33am
Msg #403248

I know I'll have a better idea once I see the package. My main concern (and maybe it shouldn't be MY concern) was that the borrowers would get charged twice. Since this is my first signing being hired directly by the borrower, I was just curious, and I'm probably getting ahead of myself. I did tell them they would be paying at the table for this, which seemed to tick him off, because he told this was a "no-cost loan". :/ Think they misunderstood the terminology. I told him I charge a small travel fee, and a per-notarization fee; this has nothing to do with the loan itself, but for the services I provide.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/9/11 11:51am
Msg #403254

OMG does this borrower expect to contact you out of the blue and for you to provide your notary services for free? Wow!

I don't think it's your concern whether or not the borrower gets charged twice. It's the borrower's responsibilty to review the charges and fees on the HUD and question their title company about anything they need clarification on.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/9/11 11:15am
Msg #403243

IME it is not listed on the HUD.

It is strictly an arrangement between you and the borrower. This could go two ways: they may want a signing agent or maybe they want just a notary to notarize their signatures. It could go either way.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 11/9/11 11:16am
Msg #403244

It doesn't matter if they hire the notary or hire an SS to hire the notary, or tell the borrower to hire his own notary....it most likely will not affect the fees they charge. I can't say for sure, but I expect one way or another, the borrower will be charged the same. See the response I made to another poster in Msg #402206. I learned firsthand how the loan officer just moves fees around randomly to make them palatable to the borrower...which is why notary fees on the HUD1 are never what we are actually being paid.

I've been hired directly by borrows in this situation. It's hard to act as just a notary, but since I'm only being hired to act as a notary...that's what I do. If the title company gets an incomplete package back (lacking initials or signatures on the top of the 1003), it's their fault because a notary doesn't have to act as a signing agent. If they want a signing agent, they'd better hire one.

Reply by Sylvia M Mease on 11/9/11 11:21am
Msg #403245

I have done the Close At Home with Wells Fargo, there were no notary fees involved in the costs. It was a no closing cost refi.
I just had my own notary come and do the notarizations.

Reply by Victoria_NJ on 11/9/11 11:23am
Msg #403246

Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

So, you only charge the per signature/acknowledgement that your state allows (usually a couple of dollars per stamp) as a NOTARY vs charging what as a SIGNING AGENT?

I'm confused.

As a NOTARY you would NOT make sure that all necessary documents are completely signed, initialed and date filled in by the borrower, your only concern would be to notarize and sign where you need to?

And as a SIGNING AGENT you would???

Kansas must have some strange laws and requirements vs the rest of the world.

Reply by jojo_MN on 11/9/11 11:32am
Msg #403247

Re: Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

Actually, there is a difference. When wearing our hats as a notary, we are there to verify their identity, make sure there are no blanks in a document and watch them sign and initial and/or giving an oath if required. This would ONLY pertain to the notarized documents.

As a signing agent, we go thru ALL of the documents and explain what the document is and point out terms of the docs to them, and where to sign and initial and notarize where needed. We also fill out identification documents etc.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/9/11 11:36am
Msg #403249

Re: Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

Julie is exactly right. If a private party contacts me saying they have a loan package and they need some notarizations, I ask them to pull out the docs that require notarization and we do only those. I charge a small travel fee to meet them, plus the $5 per notarization that my state allows. I don't look at the other documents they have in their package.

If they want me to go through their entire loan package with them as a signing agent, checking for all signatures, initials, dates, identifying purpose of docs and notarizing where indicated, then I would charge my all-inclusive signing agent fee which is higher than a per-notarization fee.

These are two different service levels.

Reply by Julie Dailey on 11/9/11 12:00pm
Msg #403257

Re: Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

Correct. If I am acting as a notary, I just do the notarizations. I have them pull the docs they need notarized and I notarize them. I'm not willing to take signing-agent responsibility if I am being paid to be a notary. (to give you an analogy: If you were a plumber hired to fix a plugged drain, you wouldn't do that and then go through the building and verify all the plumbing was working correctly, would you?)

Kansas allows me to charge any reasonable fee, but when there are a lot of notarizations, I usually cap my charge at $50. I'm a very reasonable and conscientious person. Kansas gives me rules on how to be a notary; it is silent on how I operate as a signing agent.

I'm not sure why this confuses you. It's pretty clear to me. I do what I'm hired to do. The borrowers have the option of hiring me as a signing agent, but most don't want to pay the extra money for me to don my signing agent cap.

Reply by Victoria_NJ on 11/9/11 12:15pm
Msg #403262

Re: Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

Julie, probably the difference in practices from your areas to mine.

If someone is assigned a closing, they are responsible to having all docs signed, intitialed and notarized. In 25 years+, I have never sent someone to a closing to notarize only. It'd be kind a pointless if the person witnessing the closing did not make sure all docs were properly executed.

FYI, unless you are an ATTORNEY, you should NEVER be "explaining" documents, whether you are acting as Notary or Signing Agent. That's legal advise b/c they are signing legal documents, then we get into the illegal practice of law. At most, you should say, "This is your mortgage, initial here, sign here, this is your Aff of Title, sign here, etc."

It always scares the bejesus out of me when I hear closers saying they "explain documents". It's ok to say this is your HUD and here are your charges and payoffs, but NOT ok to say, "Here's your charges, this is that they mean, how they were calculated, etc."

Be careful on that, please.

Reply by jojo_MN on 11/9/11 12:27pm
Msg #403266

Re: Notary vs Signing Agent Julie?

Actually it depends on the state laws and your licensing. I do have a "Closer License" specifically so I can explain the documents to the borrowers. It is not UPL to point out, for example, the interest rate, amount of loan, first payment date and monthly principle and interest on the Note. It is stated in black in white on the page.

We can't; however, say "you got this interest rate because..." or give any opinions on the interest rate or any other terms of the loan or the company etc. That would be UPL.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/9/11 3:09pm
Msg #403302

Victoria - it's not a difference in area - it's a matter of

comprehension - you don't get what's being asked...

A notary isn't "being sent out" to do the closing - the signers are being told to find a notary to notarize the docs - no Signing Agent duties involved here at all so no Signing Agent hat to wear or fees to charge - it's strictly a general notary request, albeit multiple documents. As a "notary only", the rest of the documents are not our business if that's not what we're hired to do.

JMO

Reply by JulieD/KS on 11/9/11 3:21pm
Msg #403305

Amen, Linda

Thanks...I obviously was not getting through to her.

Reply by JulieD/KS on 11/9/11 3:23pm
Msg #403306

And another thing...

If we hired as notaries and not as signing agents and we began rifling through their documents, we'd be looking at information that is not our to view. I'm not going to touch their paperwork except what they hand over for notarization.

Reply by Notarysigner on 11/9/11 4:59pm
Msg #403317

amen Linda! n/m

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 11/9/11 11:36am
Msg #403251

In the loans of this type that I have done ,,

"Hire your own notary" means "pay your own notary" as well. I was paid directly by the borrower for services rendered.

As far as fees, my fees are my fees regardless of who is paying. You are over thinking it. Don't get greedy. Consistency in fees is important. People talk.

As far as services to render, I quote the BO two prices and explain the service. One fee is for full blown NSA services and I explain what I do up to dropping off the docs and taking responsibility for any errors I make. I write the invoice and contract to the BO to reflect that.

The next quote is if they just want a document notarized. They pull the docs that need to be notarized, that's all I do and I quote them the fee based on signatures and travel fee. The responsibility for completing the package properly and dropping off the docs fall on the BO, and I write the invoice and contract to the BO to reflect that.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 11:42am
Msg #403252

Not being greedy.

It wasn't a question as to how much to charge the borrower. I've got that part figured out, depending upon what they require (just notarizations, check for all signatures & drop docs, etc). My question was really more about their itemization of fees. Will the lender still put "notary fees" as a charge to the borrowers? Will they pay that amount as part of their loan, and also personally pay me? I'm not being greedy; I was just wondering...will they be charged twice?

Reply by Pam/NM on 11/9/11 11:47am
Msg #403253

Re: Not being greedy.

There's no way of knowing this until you see the HUD1, but IME when the borrower is told to hire their own notary it's been POC. I think this is what you're asking. p.s. Glenn has it right as far as the nuts and bolts.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 11:53am
Msg #403255

That's what I was getting at.

Not what to charge, how to charge, when to charge. I guess I'm putting too much thought into this, trying to look out for the borrower/coworker here. This is my first experience with this. I'm not looking to get PAID twice, I was concerned with him getting CHARGED twice. That's all. I'm overstepping and overthinking. The fees the lender charges are his business. Would just like to avoid the whole "why are we paying twice" conversation I'm expecting.

Reply by jojo_MN on 11/9/11 12:07pm
Msg #403260

That is a valid question

When the customer is required to pay a notary for a step in the closing process, it should be disclosed in the documents as a closing cost whether it is paid at closing or outside of closing. It should be treated the same as an appraisal. It is a price that occurs solely because the borrower took out the loan. If it part of the closing fee charged to the title company or closing department, the borrower would, in fact, be paying twice for the fee. IMHO

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/9/11 12:04pm
Msg #403259

"... will they be charged twice? "

If lender/TC can get away with it ... just another way to rip off the borrower and pad their bottom line. Something that would easily escape an audit. Kinda like charging the borrower for a redraw when the redraw is totally the result of lender error. Common practice (if they can get away with it).

Other than that, you just have to wait to see the HUD and go from there. Alert your friend if you see a notary fee listed in the closing costs. If it's listed there, s/he should make sure it's removed (unless TC expects you to bill title directly, which could easily be the case, too). I think it would be unlikely that they'd list a notary fee POC because it hadn't been POC at the time the settlement sheet was drawn up and they wouldn't have even known the amount. Just review the HUD/settlement statement to see what's gonig on. And nowhere in your e-mails did I get the sense you were "greedy"! Geez. Where'd that come from?

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/9/11 12:18pm
Msg #403264

Re: "... will they be charged twice? "

I think we notaries have to be careful in these types of situations not to overstep. If all we are doing is acting as a notary and only notarizing signatures on a few docs, then we will not be seeing the HUD and we should not ask to see it. Now if Priscilla's co-worker friend takes it upon himself to show it to her and asks her to review to see if he is being charged for notary services on the HUD, that's a different story.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 12:26pm
Msg #403265

You're absolutely right. I'm overthinking this. n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/9/11 12:55pm
Msg #403269

Re: "... will they be charged twice? "

I don't think there would be an "overstepping" in this case. I have done loan signings for people who were told to find their own notary, but the HUD showed that the notary was to invoice the TC. The TC plans to pay the notary off the HUD but didn't want to take the time to find a notary for them or to deal with a SS. This is one reason why UPS and mail stores don't do loan pkgs. Problem is, a notary not experienced with loan signing might not know to do this.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/9/11 8:17pm
Msg #403329

Priscilla, I would not even look at the HUD1.

You will be a notary, not a signing agent. You do not need to see the HUD1.

Pretend like you are sitting at home watching re-runs of Seinfeld and eating a bowl of ice cream. The phone rings. Of course, if the caller says, "How much do you charge to do a notary?" Hang up, go get another scoop of ice cream, and go back to Seinfeld.

BUT, if he (assuming the caller is a he) says "How much do you charge to notarize documents?" You say $10 per document.

He fumbles around with his documents and says, "Ok...uh...I have a mortgage and an affidavit about debts and liens." You say, "No problem. That will be $20 if you come to me. If I come to you, add another $25-$45 depending on where I will meet you." You say this because YOU do not care about the HUD1. You're just a lean, mean, notarizing machine at that point...not a signing agent...pretend that you do not like HUD1s because they have way too many numbers and lines on them and you do not care what the numbers say.

That's how this should happen.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 9:15pm
Msg #403336

Brenda, you crack me up!

He got the package this afternoon. The LO, I suppose, separated it all out. "These need a notary, these you sign, yada yada yada." Very simple. I'm just supposed to be Little Miss Notary.
His LO left a note, "Go to your local bank and ask them to do a notary. If you can't find a notary, we will find one for you, at which point it will cost $125-150 extra." The only thing of concern to me is that the LO actually HIGHLIGHTED the initial and signature lines on the DOT and everything else he showed me. Oy. Not my concern, not my concern...

Reply by NJDiva on 11/9/11 9:33pm
Msg #403342

"Go to your local bank and ask them to do a notary."

ROFL What's so wrong with that?... If you can't find a notary to do, it's going to cost you a mere $125-150.

I do a notary...after all, I am "NotaryByCheryl"

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 11/9/11 9:37pm
Msg #403343

Re: "Go to your local bank and ask them to do a notary."

And this was the LO. Sheer genius, I says.

Reply by Karla/OR on 11/9/11 12:35pm
Msg #403267

Glenn~ thank you for this explanation! Very helpful! n/m

Reply by Victoria_NJ on 11/9/11 12:17pm
Msg #403263

RESPA LAWS

ALL known charges to the borrower are to be disclosed on the HUD including POC's. Anyone wanting to argue that can take it up with the Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).

Reply by Notarysigner on 11/9/11 12:58pm
Msg #403271

All known charges to borrower....Not unknown

IMO most borrowers are NOT unable to read their loan Docs, understand them and proceed as instructed.

Copperhead, Julie, Glenn I agree with you all.

I've done only one but the borrowers in that case wanted me to explain as needed, which I did.

Verification of no sewer damage, Yes I would explain what that form meant if need be.

UPL? Ask TC then ask SS....you'll get two different answers. Ask ten notaries, you'll get twelve different answers because two will change their mind!

Reply by Les_CO on 11/9/11 1:52pm
Msg #403285

They bring the docs to me…$5 per notarization. I come to them add $25 for travel (if it’s close) if it’s far or at an inconvenient time/place for me, I recommend someone else to do it.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 11/9/11 6:03pm
Msg #403322

Very Straightforward - I like that Les.... n/m

Reply by CapCityAgent on 11/9/11 8:10pm
Msg #403327

Priscilla, This was an excellent question. Working for a large organization, I have been ask to "notarize documents" which have turned out to be refinancing documents on a few occassions. I have gathered bits and pieces from most post that I can use going forward. Of course I will abide my state laws, but areas that are gray, I will use the information from this post to guide me through in future situations. One thing we as humans must keep in mind, we should only respond to what is being ask. Adding to a person's original questions, changes the meaning of the person's intended to be answered. Just my 2 cents!

Reply by jnew on 11/9/11 9:14pm
Msg #403335

If you are not hired by the title company or its signing service, your fee will not be included on the HUD 1. It is in effect, part of the transaction, but it is not an itemized fee which needs to be shown as a POC on the Hud 1. It is up to you as to what would be a fair fee. I think that the point made about limiting your services to documents you notarize is sound advice. I am no expert about E & O , but if you are not contracted by the settlement agent, your closing services are not protected and any advice you give to the borrowers is at your own peril if the mortgage blows up and they say that they relied on your expert opinion in signing the loan and may not have signed it otherwise.