Posted by NJDiva on 11/30/11 10:36pm
Msg #405375

I just did a last minute resign...

When I got there the bo stated that she signed last week but that she received a call today saying that because she did not date her own signature, the whole package had to be resigned.

She was very forthcoming saying that the notary just had her sign everything and then left. The notary said she would date them all later and notarize when she returned home.

She stated the notary claimed to be doing this for "years and years and years" so she figured it's just how it was done. I guess that explains how someone can say a closing only takes 20 min's.

I personally am not a sign and run notary. I understand some notaries are and I suppose that's your thing, I don't really care. But it's my understanding that by law, documents are to be signed and notarized in front of the signing party. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I tried this once before being informed that all notarization's are supposed to be performed in front of the signer. What happened to me and why I won't do it again is that I made a mistake on one of the doc's that was already signed. I inadvertently stamped it upside down. I don't mind taking the extra few minutes at the table to be sure things get done professionally and to the best of my ability. Fortunately, if I happen to make a mistake, I replace it with the bo's copy.

Companies are getting so incredibly picky about it now. Bo's must date each doc themselves, they can't fill in for each other. We're not allowed to put in their dates. What I want to know is, how did the company know the dates were not signed by the borrower?

Reply by Alz on 11/30/11 10:47pm
Msg #405376

I am no longer surprised by the incompentencies of some

people in this business. It is shocking to hear that a notary would date documents for the borrower, not notarize the documents at the table, and lastly not QA the documents. This is a disaster waiting to happen. IMHO

Reply by desktopfull on 11/30/11 10:58pm
Msg #405377

Re: I am no longer surprised by the incompentencies of some

Sounds like it did, that's why the docs had to be re-signed.

Reply by HisHughness on 12/1/11 12:34am
Msg #405393

Re: I am no longer surprised by the incompentencies of some

***It is shocking to hear that a notary would date documents for the borrower, not notarize the documents at the table, and lastly not QA the documents.***

Prepare to be shocked.

I have been doing this for 10 years, and I <never> notarize at the table. My experience has been that, confronted with 12-20 notarizations on a 125-page packet that I am simultaneously explaining, I make more mistakes notarizing at the table than I do if I wait until after the signing. I cannot recall a single occasion when I have had to return for a resign because I erred on the notarization.

The Texas SOS will tell you that the better practice is to notarize in the presence of the borrower, but there is no binding legal requirement that I do so, and I elect not to do it. If the borrower asks, I always offer to notarize at the table. To date, every one of them has said they wanted me out of their house ASAP.

And I most definitely do NOT regard my practice as grounded in incompetence.

On another topic, I am befuddled by why you would be shocked that a notary would date a document for a borrower. Is that any different that the title company or the lender sending documents that THEY have dated for the borrower? Presumably, the notary at least has seen the borrower sign on the date that he/she inserted, which is more than either a TC or a lender can say when they predate documents. I don't make it a practice to date for borrowers, but I am puzzled why that would draw such an intense reaction.

Reply by Alz on 12/1/11 9:37am
Msg #405421

I glad to hear that your process works for you w/o incident n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 12/1/11 12:12pm
Msg #405451

I glad to hear that your process works for you w/o incident

YET!!!

Reply by jba/fl on 11/30/11 11:04pm
Msg #405379

How did they know? Without seeing the docs, I could only guess. The ink color was wrong or different. The pressure was different. They had the borrowers sign something else at a different time and compared or noticed when filing that the dates looked different. The size was different. I'm sure there are other differing strokes to consider but I'm just tired of second guessing.

Reply by NJDiva on 11/30/11 11:17pm
Msg #405380

You're right about the pressure...I have two of the

same exact pens which I have people sign with and it's amazing how the color can look totally different because of the amount of pressure used.

What's crazy is that they actually take the time to LOOK for it. Although, this particular company has VERY explicit instructions about the borrower dating their own or it will be resigned. And it's not stated once, but about three different times.

It's like, at least for that one company take the extra time. They've made it very clear of the ramifications.

As Alz said, it really s**ks what this business is coming down to. And we wonder why there is so much hand holding and micro managing. UUUUUGH!

Reply by desktopfull on 11/30/11 11:22pm
Msg #405382

Re: You're right about the pressure...I have two of the

I had to go re-sign a package because the borrower's write the date exactly the same every time. IE: 06/01/11 then on another page they wrote 06/01/2011. It was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard of, and the borrower's told me that I was the 3rd notary that they had signed the docs with.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/30/11 11:36pm
Msg #405384

I have learned to state to the borrowers each & every time:

I don't care how you do it, but be consistent. Every signature the same, all dates the same. No variations....no, no, no! I try to do this with mock ferocity so that we all laugh, but I mean it. I had to drive 45 mins once on a return trip because Mr. "I will sign a symbol and get through this stack fast" on one location on a throw away type doc signed Mr. Johnathan B. Goode Penmanship in a low, low light situation and I missed it on the QC check as well. Early days - I also no longer do outdoor bars when the band is playing at dusk.

Remember, these escrow people have good lighting where they process this paperwork; we have less than ideal conditions many times. They see things we don't and if there are variations lighting helps.

Reply by CJ on 12/1/11 12:41am
Msg #405394

signature on sig-aff did not match signature on DOT.

. . . and I am not talking about the spelling.

A very picky loan company, (the one that insists on everyone dating their own docs, no cross-outs, etc.), decided that the signature on the signature affidavit did not match the DOT. The spelling was the same, but they felt his actual signature just didn't look close enough for their eyes. I had to go back to get a MATCHING signature. They faxed me the DOT and the sig aff so I could see the problem. I went back and explained it to the borrower and showed him the faxes, and he was really upset for all the trouble that it was causing him. He said it's his signature so they should just accept it. I showed him that they were different, (loopy vs. non-loopy, etc.), but he could not see it. (I could.) He signed it in a huff (sloppy), and I shipped it out, and they rejected that one too, because it still didn't look right to them. I had to go back AGAIN and he was more upset! He said he signed it, and I notarized it and they should be happy and ACCEPT it! I was thinking, "I'm the one running back and forth with the good attitude, and I just want you to SIGN it, and you're the one all bent out of shape! I had him sign about five copies of the signature affidavit so that they could pick the one they liked.

Reply by Notarysigner on 12/1/11 10:40am
Msg #405433

Re: signature on sig-aff did not match signature on DOT.

Sounds like PROVIDENT. If it was, did they insist you also use the "original" date?

Reply by NJDiva on 12/1/11 1:16pm
Msg #405468

James, it's not just Provident...I'm having more and more,

dare I say most or all, of my instructions stating that about the dates, the signatures, and how about staying within the margins? Really?

Because it's so scarce out there and so much competition, I try to follow the instructions to the best of my ability. I feel there must be SOME reason all of these demands are being put in place. I don't care what the reasons are. They're paying me, hiring me (again and again) and keeping me in business. Tell me what to do and I'll get it done if it's within my capability and legal boundaries.

We can sit here all day and argue why it's not necessary or why we have to do it. The issue here is that they pay us and we are obligated to follow their direction and instructions as long as they do not interfere with any laws, that we are not committing fraud and that we are making an honest effort to do so.

So all of you that don't follow their instructions, and I am lucky enough to be the next person to resign your loans, please continue to do it your way. I'll take all the business I can get. I won't do it underhandedly (I can assure you of that. My integrity means more to me than money), but if you want to give me the opportunity to honestly move in on your territory, that's on YOU, not me!

James, you know when I say YOU, it's in the third person...not YOU my dear!!!

Reply by Roger Proctor Sr on 12/1/11 12:15pm
Msg #405452

Re: signature on sig-aff did not match signature on DOT.

I have always thought that a person never signs their name the same way twice, I know I don't.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/1/11 12:46pm
Msg #405461

Re: You're right about the pressure...I have two of the

Sounds like a Provident package. And, yes, they are VERY explicit.

Reply by snowflake/PA on 11/30/11 11:21pm
Msg #405381

Incompetency is the right word - Had back- to-back purchases

at same location. I was the NSA for closing #1. No problems. Closing #2 I was the NSA for Seller/Builder only. Fine. My docs come from an awesome title company. Title Agent representing borrower had alot of issues and questions. Got thru her side finally, and then she realized docs dated 11-29-11 not 11-30-11. Without calling lender, and mind you Title Agent is from a law firm - she never consulted anyone. Went back, had purchaser change date on all lender docs and circle her initials. Title Agent never notarized one document at the table and the closing took 2 hours and 20 minutes. I was furious. I looked at my watch and mentioned I had another closing some distance away. However, I couldn't leave until she faxed entire loan package for a fudning number. I hold the keys for the builder and once funding # is received, keys can be given to the new homeowner. What I don't understand is why she spent 30 minutes explaining escrows. That really pissed me off.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/1/11 9:31am
Msg #405418

NJDiva wrote "But it's my understanding that by law, documents are to be signed and notarized in front of the signing party." I always feel uncomfortable when I have an understanding that something is required by law, but can't actually quote the law.

As for the stamp being upside down, I don't know if it matters. Notaries who use embossers must often place their seals upside down, depending on where there is a big enough blank space on the document. Whether the precedent for embossers extends to rubber stamps too, I don't know.

I also find it a bit confusing to mix up legal requirements with rules invented by title companies. Certainly there is no legal requirement for a signer to be the one to fill in the date, nor is there a legal requirement for the date to be filled in with a pen rather than being filled in by computer, typewriter, or rubber stamp.

Reply by NJDiva on 12/1/11 12:08pm
Msg #405450

You're right VT, law is not the appropriate word...

But I wonder if there could potentially be a legal ramification? Not notarizing at the table can, IMO, set us up for problems in the future, as far as I'm concerned.

There are so many scenarios that come to mind for me...

How about I decide to go to a Broadway show (football game, Christmas (Holiday) party, shopping, etc. etc. etc.) instead of performing that closing? Since I don't notarize at the table, I'll send my sister in my place. It won't matter. I'm not notarizing at the table anyway, right? Who will know the difference? The borrower certainly won't, right?

Well, that is, until we get in front of the judge because their house is being foreclosed upon and they want to keep the house without paying the note.

Or maybe somehow they find out that the person that brought the doc's-who swore to their identity, that took their sworn affirmations/oaths-in fact, was not the person that is on their notarized documents. Couldn't any savvy person (halfway competent atty) wanting to get something for nothing, perhaps, use that as a tool to null and void their note?

I know back in the "old days"...roflmao...(okay, okay, before 9/11 and the market meltdown), there was a lot more leniency. It was common for notaries to date the doc's themselves. We didn't have to go out of our way to cover our a**'s for fear of getting sued. We didn't have to implore people to "sign the doc's EXACTLY as it appears below the line or it could be rejected" as opposed to signing their signature. There must be SOME reason they're becoming more and more rigid about the procedures they're now enforcing.

IMO, it's not just the title companies that are making these requirements, I think (for what THAT's worth..tee hee) and from what I've heard, the financial institutions are becoming more stringent as well. Or is that because it's really now the GOVERNMENT that has their hands in everything and has influenced these changes? (hmmmm, I WONDER...)

Seriously, times have changed folks, in case ya don't know. IMO, procedures that were acceptable even a couple of years ago are being scrutinized and are becoming more highly regulated. Because the vulnerability of the housing market and it being been revealed of how easy it is to commit fraud in our industry, we need to be ever more vigilant.

I try to "C.M.A." at all times. I feel the work I complete is not only a reflection on ME, but it's also a reflection on the SS (if it applies), Title Co and Financial Inst. I want to keep those in business that keep me in business. If I do shoddy work-we all make mistakes, I'm not referring to making mistakes periodically-it doesn't just affect me. Since I am, in most cases, the only face and most times the final person that that bo has memory of, I want to leave them with the final impression of professionalism and competency-we all know that in most cases, their experience has been on the contrary. Don't get me wrong, I am not proclaiming to be perfect, these are my ideals and what I strive to achieve, in business and in every day affairs (well, except when I'm driving-I HATE to follow...lmao). I don't care what anyone else does.

Very seldom do I leave a bo's home without the package being fully executed, sealed and ready to drop for shipping (unless there are fax backs). Personally, I don't like to hold people's info any longer than I absolutely have to. I think it also gives the bo a sense of completion and security knowing it's going from their home straight to the shipper.

I find that to be the most efficient process, especially if I'm doing three+ closings a day. If I tried to bring them home and go through them all, it sets me up for way too many "what if's".

This is just my tried and true experience. It feels good to leave a bo's home and them say to me "thank you for making this so easy. You were very professional and efficient. We feel much better than when you got here." Not patting my own back, just sayin...THAT means more to me than anything and makes this more worthwhile to me that I can be of service and leave someone in a better place than when I got there.

Again...just sayin...

Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/1/11 12:37pm
Msg #405458

Re: You're right VT, law is not the appropriate word...

I agree with NJDiva that procedures are becoming more and more stringent. But these tightened procedures are not based on new laws; various organizations are just making them up, and there is no coordination to make them work together.

Just as an example, notes are covered by the Uniform Commercial Code, which defines "signed" as "includes using any symbol executed or adopted with present intention to adopt or accept a writing."

(http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=09A&Chapter=001&Section=00201)

So all those people who think they have one and only one legal signature are mistaken. It can be legible or not, the same as they used yesterday or not, a picture of a whale as in Moby Dick, they can use their left hand on one page and right hand on the next, and so on. The title companies would throw a temper tantrum, but there is no legal requirement for a signature to look similar to a previous signature.

Reply by CinOH on 12/1/11 9:42am
Msg #405423

Returned docs are checked by TC for many things. They're not only looking for proper notarization and that all docs are signed, dated and initialed. They're also checking to see WHO signed, dated, and initialed the docs. It's not that hard to see differences in handwriting. The only thing a notary should ever complete on any docs is the notary certificate area.

Reply by HisHughness on 12/1/11 10:00am
Msg #405425

***The only thing a notary should ever complete on any docs is the notary certificate area.***

This kind of blanket, all-encompassing statement is not helpful at all.

I fill in many things during the course of signings. I change the venue in affidavits if it needs to be changed. I fill in blanks in the Marital Status Affidavit and the Owner's Affidavit. I rarely insert a date, but would have no compunction in doing so, absent TC or lender instructions to the contrary.

This is a business in which the well-organized lender or title company will often fill in information on the borrower that it has in hand. Many will even provide aspects of the notary certification, such as the borrowers' names and the date of notarization. I am a part of that process. If the lender or TC can do it, what is the bar to the notary doing it? To say, without qualification, that a notary should NEVER complete information in a document is going way too far.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/1/11 10:15am
Msg #405427

Agree. I am thinking of one of the forms that has a 'effective date' on it at the bottom of the verbiage and in the paragraph ending before the signature lines. I know I have very clear, concise handwriting, so I always fill that one. That should be a TC function as far as I'm concerned. Then there is insurance info - and if the BO has scratchy handwriting, I fill that as well.

I think that some of these people get carried away by their own sense of importance.