Posted by VT_Syrup on 11/17/11 2:55pm
Msg #404326

Middle names, suffixes, and driver's licenses

I just noticed something interesting about Vermont driver's licenses. The regular driver's license application at

http://dmv.vermont.gov/sites/dmv/files/pdf/DMV-VL015-Duplicate_License_Reg_App.pdf

has a space for a middle name. The enhanced driver's license application at

http://dmv.vermont.gov/sites/dmv/files/pdf/DMV-VL011-EDL_Application.pdf

has only spaces for first and last name. Neither has space for a suffix. So I guess the
Vermont DMV thinks middle names and suffixes just aren't very important.

Reply by Pam/NM on 11/17/11 4:10pm
Msg #404331

NM will place a middle initial on a driver's license, but not the full middle name. They will also do suffixes, but I don't know what documentation they require for that. They will do hyphenated last names (i.e. Smith-Jones). Of course, we also issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants here, so we all have to get passports in order to fly, but...

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/17/11 8:45pm
Msg #404351

Number of fraudulent acts on mortgages due to no middle

name on DL when middle name exists on mortgage documents? Zero reported.

A DL without a suffix or a middle initial is not the tool of mortgage crooks.

I commend Vermont for not playing into the middle initial/middle name matching game.

Case law says that a middle initial has nothing to do with one's identity in Texas. If notaries in other states would research case law, I suspect that very similar case law rulings and AG opinions would be discovered. But then, that'd be the end of demanding perfectly matching IDs to names on documents, clucking tongues, and wagging fingers at borrowers to "Go get ID in your 'legal' name!"

That a citizen is treated that way when he or she requests notarization and presents satisfactory evidence of ID to a notary in the form of a current, government issued ID, or other statutorily acceptable ID without a match that meets a NOTARY's criteria rather than the criteria of "satisfactory evidence" is a very hot topic with me. It happens so often related to suffixes such as "jr" and "sr" (men) and maiden names (women) that it is discriminatory against certain sections of the population. Citizens with authentic, valid, current ID should receive notary services. I do not know how or when it started that notaries got to refuse people based on the notary's personal preferences of names on ID.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 11/17/11 11:45pm
Msg #404369

I do not know how or when it started ? From well meaning

notary instructors who believe that if you her an unban nyth repeated enough, then
'"IT MUST BE TRUE"

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/18/11 6:47am
Msg #404379

Right, Bob.

Besides, it makes them sound like they've got answers that no one else has.

Reply by Michael Brudenell on 11/18/11 12:22am
Msg #404372

Re: Number of fraudulent acts on mortgages due to no middle

I agree with you on the middle name aspect, and the jr/sr suffix, but maiden names have caused me problems at signings more than once. Just today I had a mortgage signing where the wife had changed her name on her DL to her married name, however, had not changed it anywhere else, and then made the loan application in her maiden name. If I am provided identification showing Jane Newname, but the mortgage shows the name Jane Oldname, then I have not been provided with sufficient identification.

Reply by BobbiCT on 11/18/11 6:58am
Msg #404380

WELL SAID, BRENDA!

It seems more and more that Today's Terrified Timid notary PUBLIC OFFICIALS forget who they are commissioned by and who they are responsible to: Their own State's Commissioning Official and the Public that they serve. Be true to your own commissioning State's laws (keep a paper copy in your briefcase) and use common sense guidelines provided by organizations and others that sell classes and products. Both are excellent tools to have in your notary toolbox.

If you are afraid of being sued because you do not want to accept the responsibility and liability that comes with the position YOU APPLIED FOR AND REQUESTED, you should re-think being a notary PUBLIC.

I detest the phrase "legal name"; what's an illegal name? Do I have an illegal name because my name is too long to fit in the CT driver license database and, therefore, my name as accepted by both the IRS and U.S. Immigration departments is illegal for use in CT?

Granted, EXACTLY what some state laws require a notary to use to identify a signer may be vague, but use some sense. Those of you working as indendent subcontractors, not in your capacity as a notary public, identifying an individual for the purpose of signing other documents - well, that's another kettle of spoiled fish.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/18/11 7:39am
Msg #404386

Poke holes in this hypothesis

(Gender of buyer, seller, notary, picked by coin toss.)
Hypothesis: there are two important things about names in a deed or mortgage: making sure the person who signs owns the property and has the authority to sign, and putting on the record that the mortgage or deed exists and affects a property known to belong to a certain person. It's really the responsibility of the buyer (or his attorney or title company) and the lender to find out the current name of the true owner. It is the responsibility of the notary to assure that the person before her has the right to use name signed on the deed or mortgage and meets all state ID requirements. In some states, the problem of an owner who changes his name is solved by recording a special form with the property description, old name, and new name in the real estate records. In other states, the change of name court order is recorded in the real estate records. In still other states, a phrase like "John Wayne, who took title as Marion Mitchell Morrison" is used, and the county clerk indexes the deed under both names.

So when a person asks to sign with a different name than appears on ID, it's usually because the lawyer, lender, and title company didn't do their homework (big surprise). It could also be that the state legislature didn't do its homework and provide for a method to change the owners names in the real estate records (but what can you expect from idiots?)

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/18/11 7:53am
Msg #404388

Re: Poke holes in this hypothesis

*Hypothesis: there are two important things about names in a deed or mortgage: making sure the person who signs owns the property and has the authority to sign, and putting on the record that the mortgage or deed exists and affects a property known to belong to a certain person.*

Fortunately, a notary is a notary and not an abstractor or title company. A notary performs a verbal ceremony with the signer. The signer acknowledges or swears/affirms to the reason for signing the document. Notaries don't make those determinations. Notaries view IDs and determine if they are valid and acceptable by their states. They use satisfactory evidence (another good way to say common sense).

We are not name policemen, or title policemen.

We do not have that much authority or legal training.

If notaries aren't prepared to use satisfactory evidence and actually understand how to serve the public, they should not have commissions.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/18/11 8:29am
Msg #404395

Re: Poke holes in this hypothesis

Last night I had Mary Smith Brown on DL and the docs said Mary A. Brown. Mr. Brown and Mrs. Brown appeared to me to cohabitate in this house I was at, evidenced by wall of photos progressing from marriage 15 years ago through child and his growth recorded thusly.

Knowing FL's penchant for arbitrarily inserting maiden names on female ID's, I had to make that leap of faith that she is indeed one and the same person, therefore, notarize for this woman. "If walls could speak", well, I think that sometimes we have to "listen" when the walls do speak. It is common sense. We are allowed to make judgment calls IMHO.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/18/11 8:37am
Msg #404397

Like! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/18/11 9:16am
Msg #404404

complete agreement, Brenda!

Not ONLY is it "satisfactory evidence" - it is NOT "personal satisfaction". You'll also find the legaleze favorite word "reasonable" used all over the place.

These discussions are invaluable, and I'm so glad you're around!

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/18/11 9:51am
Msg #404407

Comparing current real name to ID is notary's job

To clarify I think it IS the job of the lawyers, title companies, & lenders to put the documents in a form that the borrower/seller can sign with his/her current real name. It is the job of the notary to decide if the notary's personal knowledge, the credible witnesses, and/or the ID presented are sufficient to establish the real name of the person before the notary. Living in an area with more than a few snowbirds and college students, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to encounter a Florida driver's license, and would be willing to treat a "wrong" middle initial as an involuntary mutilation of the signer's name by the DMV if there was enough evidence to convince me I had the right person.

If the lawyers et al. haven't done their job and the signer is being asked to sign with a former name, that's a different question, which I'm not writing about.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/18/11 10:57am
Msg #404414

Re: Comparing current real name to ID is notary's job

* if there was enough evidence to convince me I had the right person*

In fact, it has always been my impression that VT notaries are encourage to know the signer personally, rather than to rely on ID. Not so easy in the larger states.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/18/11 9:43pm
Msg #404465

Glad that you are around, Renee'...you put that voice of

reason in this forum!