Posted by Heather/NH on 10/11/11 1:18pm
Msg #400146

I know this is a stupid question.... but

I had a man call today and he said that he and his wife are getting divorced and need some forms notarized. Ok, I can do that.... but, he said his wife is disabled, she is blind and in a wheelchair.
He said that she will sign where he tells her to and he will explain what it all says. I asked if he had POA and he said he does, but he wants her to sign for herself... So, I am confused and not comfortable with this at all. He was also pushing for me to get this done within an hour, to which I replied "no". Everything about this is screaming a bit "NO" to me, I am even uncomfortable with going to the residence.
Any thoughts?

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/11/11 1:31pm
Msg #400148

Not a stupid question. First of a all anytime you feel uncomfortable about anything, don't do it. Now, here in Ca before people are granted a divorce and have anything of value must attend a settlement conference.....I do lot's of these as part of GNW. Most of the time it takes months before in order to agree they gotta stop hating each other so much. Once they come to an agreement, the Docs are notarized and presented to the court.
If in your case, the clients are handling the divorce themselves, I'm almost certain they would have forms needing to be completed to submit to the courts. If I were in your state, I would become familiar with the process before attempting to get involved. The good part about us here in Cal is we just notarize signatures, not Docs.

Reply by Heather/NH on 10/11/11 1:37pm
Msg #400150

I agree with my instinct. I know it is just the signature here as well, I don't care what they agree on divorce wise (they are doing it themselves). I just question, why the rush? why not have someone at the courthouse notarize? he was not willing (able) to come to me in the beginning, then all of a sudden was "able" when I told him I was not readily available to go to him.
What about the wife being blind? I have never come across this (although I should already know this).
Ironic, in a closing situation I am OK and confident, but not GNW. Should be the other way around ;p

Reply by Rani Sampson on 10/11/11 11:39pm
Msg #400204

Re: Pressure? Bullying? Something's wrong

Whenever someone pressures me to take a deal, it's usually because it's a bad deal.

The person knows they can't persuade with logic, so they try to influence with emotions...anyone who tries to bully you into something or who tries to manipulate you into "feeling" like you ought to do it, or time-pressure you so you don't think clearly is someone not to be trusted.

I like that you stepped back and asked the question - should I be doing this? Probably not!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/11/11 1:32pm
Msg #400149

Don't know about NH, but in IL a notary may only notarize

a document signed by a blind person after the notary reads the entire doc to the signer.
NP can then charge a fee of one whole dollar per document.
I can see why you are uncomfortable.
If they are getting a divorce, then there is probably an attorney involved.
Just like an offer of a "great" investment. "If you need a quick answer, then the answer is NO".

Reply by Heather/NH on 10/11/11 1:42pm
Msg #400152

and why is he divorcing his blind/wheelchair bound wife? n/m

Reply by SharonMN on 10/11/11 1:44pm
Msg #400153

I don't think this is necessarily bad, but it could be. It would all depend on whether the wife appeared to be coherent, aware, and not under duress (and of course whether the husband was actually telling her the correct content of the docs.) It could just be a sworn list of their assets to provide to the lawyers or something. I'd want to talk to the wife before making a trip, though, and I'd question why they weren't having the forms notarized at their lawyers' offices. I'd also question why the wife has not revoked the husband's POA if they are getting divorced. That surely sounds like a recipe for disaster.

That being said, if you are uncomfortable, you don't need to take the job and you certainly don't need to travel to their home.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/11/11 1:57pm
Msg #400155

Divorcing his wife who is blind and confined to a wheel chair.
Heather, I wouldn't do it either.

What's she to do now? Sounds like he's just going to discard her. Maybe push her into the street. I think he might need a hockey stick to the head.

Reply by NJDiva on 10/11/11 2:09pm
Msg #400158

This sounds bizarre basically just because he holds a POA

Why not have him sign as POA and put it back on him? This way he's held accountable. It's on him. I would think it would be obvious to a court, no? lol..hmph

However, please note for the record, if I thought for one minute there was fraud being perpetrated or someone was being cheated, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!

Reply by jba/fl on 10/11/11 2:26pm
Msg #400161

People have many reasons for divorcing. Another may

just be because they will receive more aid if they are divorced than if they stay married. There may be health issues that they cannot otherwise have resolved.

Must not rush to judgment here - they may not tell you why as they are ashamed of how their lives have devolved.

My first thought....and I could very well be wrong.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/11/11 2:36pm
Msg #400164

You are not wrong,...Jba

Not everyone has a trust. for example, if you are married and have to be placed in a home, assisted living , whatever..all your assets will be used to pay for your housing cost. If you are divorced and your ex spouse has all the assets and you have no assets, bingo! Happening all the time. Seniors are smarter then people give them credit for.

Reply by Heather Michaud on 10/11/11 2:39pm
Msg #400165

Re: You are not wrong,...Jba

I agree about the elderly. My career is nursing... in a nursing home. My first thought was financial reasons as well. However, unless I get more information I am not comfortable with this. We shall see....

Reply by CinOH on 10/11/11 4:03pm
Msg #400171

I've notarized for the blind before. Ideally the document should be translated into braille so that the singer can read the document him/herself (if they read braille, that is). The Blind Society used to offer this service for free (in my area). Barring that option an objective third party should be brought in to read the document to the blind signer, word for word before the signer is given the oath. Some notaries feel comfortable with reading the doc to the blind singer. I personally ask the blind signer to secure a document reader (friend, relative, etc.) they are comfortable with to read the document to them. That's my personal preference.

You did the right thing. I would not have touched this notarization. The circumstances are very suspicious--blind signer who is also disabled, divorce docs, MUST be done within the hour--when in doubt DON'T.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/11/11 4:46pm
Msg #400178

***an objective third party should be brought in to read the document to the blind signer, word for word***

In almost 10 years, I've never been asked to notarize for a non-sighted person, even though Austin is the home for the State School for the blind. Are you contending that before I could notarize a 16-page legal size deed of trust, it would have to be read to the signer?

Reply by jba/fl on 10/11/11 5:34pm
Msg #400181

In Florida, yes. I do not know about TX; I am sure you do though.

Reply by jnew on 10/11/11 5:36pm
Msg #400183

Why would the blind person be read the DOT if the normal practice for a sighted signer is not to read the entire document? Excellent point.

Reply by CinOH on 10/11/11 6:51pm
Msg #400189

You would follow your state's law and/or adopt best practices that you're comfortable. In some states it is the law that the notary read the ENTIRE document, word for word, to the blind individual. Some states are silent on the issue. My state is silent on the issue. I choose to adopt what I feel are best practices when notarizing for a blind individual. I personally choose to have them supply their own document reader as an extra layer of protection for me. A 16-page legal sized deed is a large document, however, we have to accommodate all signers.

Reply by Kathy Fletcher on 10/11/11 5:51pm
Msg #400184

Every word of every document must be read,,, Why?

How is the signner in the case of a Jurat going to swear under oath that the statements within the document are true if the document is not read to them.

In the case of an acknowledgement: how can they acknowledge that they understand the contents of the document?

The same is true for any other document I present. The signer must be read every word on every page.

Just think, "What will I tell the judge." If this goes to court?

I also ask the signer to provide 1-2 readers. This is a must for a loan package.

How long does a loan package take? Based on the average loan package of about 125 pages,
it takes about 5-6 hours to read every page. I have provided this service before and timed it.

Reply by jnew on 10/11/11 6:01pm
Msg #400185

Re: Every word of every document must be read,,, Why?

What you are saying then is that on all of your signings you refuse to sign and seal an acknowledgment on a deed of trust unless your borrowers completely read the DOT at signing to prove to you that they are familiar with its contents.

Reply by CinOH on 10/11/11 6:59pm
Msg #400190

Re: Every word of every document must be read,,, Why?

Not really. A sighted individual who can, but chooses not to, read what is in front of him/her is totally different from someone who cannot see and is being presented with a document to sign that he or she cannot read. Someone has to tell them what the document says (unless it is in braille) as they cannot read it for themselves.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/11/11 7:47pm
Msg #400192

Re: Every word of every document must be read,,, Why?

***A sighted individual who can, but chooses not to, read what is in front of him/her is totally different***

Beknighted sort that I am, you're going to have to explain to me the difference between a sighted person electing not to read a document, and a non-sighted person electing not to have a document read to him. I see no daylight at all between those choices.

I've got a $50 bill that says when I get my first closing for a non-sighted borrower, when I give him/her the choice, the choice is going to be "Gimme the freakin' pen."

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/12/11 12:27am
Msg #400208

Below is the text of Sec 6-104 (e) of the Illinois Notary

Public Act

"(e) A notary public shall not take the acknowledgment of any person who is blind
until the notary has read the instrument to such person."

No provision in the law for additional fees beyond the statutory maximum of $1.00

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/12/11 6:53am
Msg #400221

Trust your 'instinct'

I could think of a hundred pro/con points to this situation, but none of them add up to the value of our own instinct (by whatever name you call it).

Just so happens, I just finished reading "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell ...all about instinct, 'snap' judgements, etc. Plugging it because it was pretty interesting stuff. It's a honed 'skill', listening to & trusting yourself. =)

Reply by Sarah Flum on 10/26/11 10:55am
Msg #401760

I would decline it and have them go to atty.