Posted by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 7:48pm
Msg #400781

Instructions from SS.

I have a loan signing for tomorrow, assigned by Bancserv.

In their notary instructions is the following:

5) Please note that any Loose-leaf acknowledgments CANNOT be taped or stapled to the documents. ( California notaries, it is okay to use the WA acknowledgment page provided in your package if the property is in WA) It must be on a 8 1/2 x 11 or 8 1/2 x 14 page and it too needs to have4 a clear 1 ince margin.

I have news for you Bancserv, if the acknowledgment wording doesn't comply with Calif. requirements it isn't going to happen. I havn't recieved the documents yet.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/17/11 8:34pm
Msg #400784

Buddy...from page 11 of your handbook

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2011.pdf

So they're right - if property is in WA you CAN use the WA ack provided and, per your handbook, you're fine ... and they don't want it taped or stapled as the docs are probably scanned - so to avoid it being rejected by the recorder I'd suggest compliance.

JMO

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/17/11 8:36pm
Msg #400785

Use a paper clip

I think they'll likely be scanning docs, and tape or paper clips pose specific problems that include scratching the scanner, or tape/staples destroying parts of original docs.
It's not an unusual request.
And, WA must have specific size and margin requirements. Also not an unusual request.
If you can't alter the WA ack, include a loose certificate to include CA wording, and make sure it has the right margins. Use the same size paper that the WA ack is printed on.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/17/11 8:37pm
Msg #400786

Buddy, this is from page 11 of the current Notary Public Handbook, from the SOS website:

"A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law."

I realize that not everyone interprets this the same way, but if a state has verbiage that they publish for how an acknowledgment should be worded for their state's notaries, I will accept that for a document that is to be recorded in that state (like a DOT or Mortgage) as long as it doesn't refer to a capacity or state that personal knowledge is an option for identification. For other docs requiring acknowledgment, I might add a loose certificate. (I'd need to see the documents before being able to say for sure.)

I doubt I'd work for Bancserve, but that would probably be for reasons other than this requirement.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 8:46pm
Msg #400787

Re: Janet, you are correct of course, but

right after the paragraph you quoted is another sentance which states" Any certificate of acknowledgment taken within this state shall be in the following form."

So which is it?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/17/11 8:49pm
Msg #400788

Buddy, is it what she said

Your SOS provides the form you're to use in CA but you're allowed the latitude of using another state's ack IF the document will be used in that other state and as long as it does not require you to include capacity...

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 9:14pm
Msg #400792

Re: ok, thanks, Janet and Linda.

I just took each statement seperately and on it's own, which confused me.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/17/11 9:21pm
Msg #400794

To Buddy.....Linda and JanetK are

providing the "tools" to help you make the decision you-must-make yourself.

Frankly you have a choice of not doing it (turn it back) or decide for yourself. Heck, you got two choices so pick one.

If you don't do what the SS says, I promise you they won't call you again. If you feel using the CA Ack is the right thing, then go for it.

JanetK is correct by saying people can interpret it different (which I do) and Linda probably knows the CA notary Handbook better than I do but it Doesn't mean her interpretation is the correct either.

Decide for yourself. You won't have anyone to blame that way. BTW, didn't you say you been doing this for nine years?

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 11:17pm
Msg #400804

Re: To James, I didn't put this one here so I would have a

CHOICE!!!!! I put this on here so I could figure out if I'm right or not. I believe the SS to be wrong in this case.

Calif., as you know , is very specific as to the wording on ack and jurats.
A lot of SS don't give a crap about us or what we're obligated to do, thay just want things nice and tidy. The SS don't care if they are asking us to break the law.

I realize if I use their ack. probably nothing will happen, it will just make them happy. Do we have to make them happy to keep a job? Not if it requires breaking the law. I didn't say how long i've been doing this, but everytime I encounter a new twist, I do feel like a newbee.

I've actually turned down almost as many signing as I have accepted this year. I took this one because I don't have a signing for tomorrow and I can do it after the golf tournament I'm playing in is over. It does pay 3 digets

Thank You, Marian, you understood my concern and addressed it well. You always do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/17/11 9:34pm
Msg #400799

I tend to disagree a bit with the blanket "ok" to use it simply because the property is out of state. The CA rule is that the wording is "required" in that state order to be filed. Honestly, that's the part that a lot of people gloss over.

The fact is that every other state (California included) must accept a properly executed notarial certificate from whatever venue it comes from if from out of state.

I've done a lot of research on this, and I've not found ONE state or agency that has specific notarial wording that they require for filing. They have all told me that they can and do accept notarial wording from California.

Therefore, it isn't "required" --- and thus, the ability for us to use non-compliant wording is gone.

If it were me, I'd have the signing service provide me a written statement wherein it states the wording they gave me is REQUIRED FOR FILING in that state. If they can't provide it, too bad... they're getting a California certificate.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 10:07pm
Msg #400801

Thanks Marian, you are always on top of everything.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/18/11 10:43am
Msg #400839

Re: Thanks everyone, it's been interesting. n/m

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/17/11 10:52pm
Msg #400803

Re: Marian, you understood what I was getting at. TY n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/18/11 5:05am
Msg #400814

Janet & Marian,

Two of the best minds out there, knew it would prove to be an outstanding discussion! I can't imagine anyone (including the SOS) knowing more about CA law than you two.

However ... as you both do so well, we know law is written for each word to be considered, and the CA Civil Code has what might be a crucial difference in wording than the handbook (I HATE when that happens!). CA Civil Code states "...that MAY BE required ...", Handbook states "IS required". The actual law sends me leaning towards Janet's interpretation.

One more 'however' ... since N/R has so many CA notaries, and this particular debate comes up rather often - hasn't anyone yet obtained a written directive from the horse's mouth?

Me, myself & I, we don't put much store in calling & getting a clerk's opinion, you just can't take that to the bank. I go for actual written directives.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/18/11 5:06am
Msg #400815

meant "as you both KNOW AS well ..." =) n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/18/11 7:46am
Msg #400821

May does NOT equal required.....that is just what I was

trying to get Buddy to understand but I failed. ReneeK, JanetK and of course Marian and Linda, Great!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/18/11 6:13pm
Msg #400896

Re: Janet & Marian,

Renee, thanks for lending some additional clarity (as you do so well) to a great discussion. (And thanks for the nice comments.)



This whole thread points out that there are often what appear to be conflicts and/or contradictions in actual wording about various topics. The verbiage is, after all, written by fallible human beings. Renee made a great point about going to the actual code vs the Handbook explanations in the front section, when in doubt. And requesting a written directive sounds like a great idea. Has anyone ever successfully received one from the CALIFORNIA SOS office?

My philosophy about this type of issue is to try to look to the probable intent of what is written. We will all may have different interpretations of that, but we need to depend on our best judgment in so many other things, as well.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/18/11 6:16pm
Msg #400899

Re: Janet & Marian,

I meant to insert one more point, which is perhaps the most critical one... I do agree that this issue appears to be one that is widely misinterpreted and I'm not among those who believe that we can accept any acknowledgment verbiage just because the property is out of state and it happens to be on a DOT, etc. Unless I have an opportunity to look up what that state publishes for their notaries to use, I'll always default to adding a CA-compliant ack.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/18/11 6:58pm
Msg #400901

Re: Janet & Marian,

As an afterthought, most of the packages I get will have a blank Calif All purpose Ack in them. I have never had closing instructions stating that I was not to use a Calif Ack.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/18/11 9:39pm
Msg #400912

Agree, JanetK

<<<.......I'm not among those who believe that we can accept any acknowledgment verbiage just because the property is out of state and it happens to be on a DOT, etc. Unless I have an opportunity to look up what that state publishes for their notaries to use, I'll always default to adding a CA-compliant ack.>>>

Totally agree!!

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 10/18/11 10:18am
Msg #400833

Instructions from SS: agree with Linda, read the first line

Any certificate of acknowledgment taken within this state shall be in the following form:
State of California }
County of _________
On __________ before me, (here insert name and title of the officer), personally
appeared ______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________ ,
who proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person(s) whose name(s) is/are
subscribed to the within instrument and acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same
in his/her/their authorized capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their signature(s) on the instrument the
person(s), or the entity upon behalf of which the person(s) acted, executed the instrument.
I certify under PENALTY OF PERJURY under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing
paragraph is true and correct.
WITNESS my hand and official seal.
Notary Public Signature Notary Public Seal
Note:
Key wording of an acknowledgment is “personally appeared.” An acknowledgment
cannot be affixed to a document mailed or otherwise delivered to a notary public whereby
the signer did not personally appear before the notary public, even if the signer is known by
the notary public. Also, a notary public seal and signature cannot be affixed to a document
without the correct notarial wording.

Any other state's notarial wording shall be in the above form.