Posted by Carolyn Nee on 10/20/11 7:12pm
Msg #401158

Jr. on ID but not docs

Okay - I'm doubting myself here - if a borrower's name on ID shows a Jr., shouldn't docs show the same? And conversely if docs show a Jr. but name on ID has no Jr. Isn't there a problem? Mine is the first scenario - SS says it's not a problem if the docs don't reflect Jr.

Reply by Cathy/CA on 10/20/11 7:32pm
Msg #401162

SS is correct. The ID can have more of the borrower's name (John Adam Smith Jr.) than is on the documents (John A. Smith). The documents cannot have more of the borrower's name (John Adam Smith Jr.) than is on his ID (John A. Smith).

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/20/11 8:02pm
Msg #401165

I'd be doubting it too...but that's just my nature

John James Adams Jr could have taken on the "Jr" to differentiate himself from his father, John James Adams. I'm thankful Florida addresses this problem - we can use "who took title as..<<paraphrased>>..." in our certs.

In my mind John James Adams is not necessarily one and the same as John James Adams Jr. (and to the SS, no, the Same Name Affidavit will NOT cover it) and I, personally, don't consider the presence of "Jr." or "Sr." as representative of the "more" theory. John James Adams is *more* than John J. Adams, but to me in this instance, you could feasibly be talking about two different people.

Does he maybe have other ID that can satisfy you that they are one and the same?

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/20/11 8:46pm
Msg #401169

Is there any evidence that this man

is not who he says he is?

Before a signer is discredited as being untruthful and misrepresenting him or herself, there should be evidence that he or she is lying. This is according to both California and Florida's definition of "satisfactory evidence."

No disrespect is intended to any poster by this response, but the more or less rule of thumb is totally bunk and an urban myth, if anything. It is not law.

If the signer is lying, call the police and report a crime. If you don't have evidence that they are, then notarize the documents. It can't be both ways. They either are who they represent themselves to be, or they are liars. A liar would be attempting to commit a crime.

A driver license is only issued so that a person can drive; that's all a driver license can tell anyone who views it. It has nothing to do with a land transaction and it was not prepared with such in mind by the clerks who look a birth certificate, library card, or utility bill and fit the letters of a name into so many spaces.

However, a notary can look at it and make a determination that if there is no evidence that the person is not telling the truth after presenting acceptable government issued ID (i.e., driver license) that the person is who he or she represents himself to be, or that he or she is not.

The day will eventually come when a signer says "Enough of this." and takes an unjustified refusal to court and the court tries it. Then, and only then, will notaries be properly taught to exercise reasonable caution in their duties based on satisfactory evidence.

What would a justifiable refusal be? For one, knowing that the documents are intended for a 50 year old man and a twenty year old man with the same name attempts to sign them.

People are not guilty until proven innocent by evidence in this country. They are innocent until proven guilty.

Sincerely,

Suzy Q. Citizen, who is very sympathetic with American Citizens who are treated as liars when they seek notary services based on notaries' misguided beliefs that driver licenses are "official" sources of ID. There is no such thing.

Hint: Study the definition of "Satisfactory evidence."

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/20/11 9:11pm
Msg #401170

Agree 100%. Don't overthink it. n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/20/11 11:36pm
Msg #401186

Agree, Brenda. There is a huge difference between GNW

when some random, potential signer wanders in with a document and an ID. and NSA work
where you have been sent documents , and are meeting someone at their home to sign the documents which have been prepared by a lender which has been thouroughly checking the signer out for several months.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 10/20/11 11:49pm
Msg #401188

Good response, Brenda! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/21/11 4:23am
Msg #401197

This should be framed & hung on the wall =) n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/21/11 10:12pm
Msg #401279

Thank you Renee' and those ^^^ who

have said that this is not fool talk. I appreciate these validating remarks and those I have received by PM.

I know you guys have studied notary law and do not take this lightly.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/24/11 1:30am
Msg #401409

Wait. Are you saying to use common sense? That's crazy! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/26/11 5:37pm
Msg #401820

Message Deleted

This message has been deleted by a forum moderator.

Reason: Author Request - Special Exception

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/20/11 10:23pm
Msg #401173

Providing the DOB on the license and the 1003 match, you're covered. Just note the discrepancy and resolution in your journal in case you are ever called to testify. When the docs don't have junior on them, and the ID does, you need to take this simple precaution to cover yourself since John Doe is normally the father and Jr. the son. Having been mercilessly attacked by attornies when family contests wills etc in court, and passed with flying colours, I tend to be a bit more cautious as a result.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 10/20/11 11:13pm
Msg #401179

I disagree

I disagree on this. DOB is not on the deed of trust, etc. Likewise, what about instances of travel letters, approving a child to travel out of the country without a parent? What about Jr/Sr. disagreement then?

When I see Jr/Sr on docs, I call ahead to make sure some ID backs it up, or I get real nervous. I've seen one too many dysfunctional families to even go with my gut on these.

ID has to match docs for me.

As an aside, I'd avoid naming children AT ALL COST after anyone else in the family for just this sort of thing. But as someone with a super common name (There was another Jessica L. Ward who lived on the same street as me, and regularly kites checks, still.... which I frequently have to answer for...) so I'm a little extra paranoid.

I'm of the feeling that it is our job to be the cautious ones. That's why there's a notary in the process, or they could have anyone sign loan documents, or require no witnesses at all.

Just my opinion...
JW

Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/20/11 11:21pm
Msg #401182

Re: I disagree

I'm a stickler on this also and here's why

There is (was, he's deceased now) a man by the same name as my husband. His office was on Lincoln in O'fallon and we live on Lincoln in Mascoutah (8 miles apart). He had a daughter Lauren, we have a Laura. He had a daughter Kristen and we have a Krista. He took his kids to the same pediatrician as us. Thank God we never banked at the same bank.

If docs have Jr, Sr. I want to see an ID that has Jr Sr. and vice versa. The name aff does not cut it with me. I hate and feel bad sometimes about it, but I'm not taking any chances. If people want to change their names, then get an ID to prove it. I completely understand WHY they want to, but if you do anything legal, have an ID to match it. JMO

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/20/11 11:29pm
Msg #401184

Re: I disagree

Please note my response was in reference to a mortgage loan signing exclusively (ref to 1003 that does show the DOB). My apologies for not remembering that there are many of you that do general notary work rather than an exclusive practice in the real estate arena.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/20/11 11:35pm
Msg #401185

Re: I disagree

I also failed to mention that my certificate, in this case, would indeed have included the "Jr" even though the documents don't. I do advise the principals that this will be the case and they either have to approve it or redraw. If they're not available, I proceed with the Jr. and I am covered because I have correctly stated the name of the person who has appeared before me. On a mortgage loan, I would note my journal that the DOB on the license matched the DOB on the docs. If an SSA card is available, I double check that match as well. The escrow officers and loan processors have a challenging job so I try not to make it more complicated if I can avoid it and stay within the law.

Reply by BrotherOwner on 10/20/11 11:42pm
Msg #401187

Real life situation: Docs say John Jones Johnson Jr. on refi. BWR, claims to be John Jones Johnson Jr. but has nothing/ can provide nothing that says he actually IS John Jones Johnson Jr. What would you do? Let's say he's 30 and married. Father is also John Jones Johnson. BOTH are their legal names!!

Reply by BrotherOwner on 10/20/11 11:55pm
Msg #401189

Re: ANSWER...

to this real life situation. Contacted Title from table. Turns out BOTH father and son work at same employer, and for EMPLOYER's convenience, 1 was tagged SR. and the other JR. No other place are they known legally or otherwise as Sr./Jr., no documentation/ID of ANY kind. Turns out at last refi, or original purchase of property, I don't remember which, someone took Jr. on FAITH only. Signing was adjourned, Title did a redraw,signed next night. Ya never know what you're going to run into out there......

Reply by SouthernOK on 10/21/11 7:04am
Msg #401200

I have known people that did it on purpose.

They named their son the smae name as the father, no Sr./Jr. etc. That way they could transfer on death all the assests to the son and do an end-run around the legal red tape.

I'm not sure how well it worked, but it's an interesting idea.

Reply by Carolyn Nee on 10/21/11 7:17am
Msg #401202

Thank you for all your responses and the conversation that it generated. Brenda, I have no reason to think the borrower is lying - haven't even met the man yet. Totally agree with your sentiments - I tend to trust unless I have good reason not to. My question was more coming from any later confusion as to whether a father or son signed the documents. As it turns out, received documents from Title company and ID and documents match. Thanks to all again.

Reply by janCA on 10/21/11 9:00am
Msg #401206

Couldn't this confusion be avoided if......

a copy of the ID, visa vi, was sent to the lender in the first place, at the beginning of the loan process, and let them deal with any discrepancies there might be. This would make our job a lot easier at the signing. No ID issues, whatsoever.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/21/11 10:26am
Msg #401219

That'll never happen because lenders don't concern

themselves with the individual states' notary ID requirements - that's why we've heard time and again "But there's a Same Name (or One and the Same) Affidavit in the file that covers that"...

Duh

Reply by janCA on 10/21/11 11:57am
Msg #401226

Re: That'll never happen because lenders don't concern

Linda, I'm not talking about the states' notary ID requirements, I'm just talking about what is actually on the ID to match it to what is put on the signature line of the docs. And since what is usually put on the docs is how title was on the prior loan, can't a grant deed take care of that? I did these all the time during the boom.

Reply by Jillian Hinrichs on 10/21/11 11:17am
Msg #401222

I have to go with what NNA says as they have been around for a long time. They state that docs can contain less of the name than shows on the ID but can't contain more than what shows on the ID. As long as you contacted the lender to verify that it would be okay, and note in your journal that ID shows longer name and that lender said it was fine, you should be covered.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/21/11 11:39am
Msg #401223

Re: Jr. on ID but not docs...Disagree

"As long as you contacted the lender to verify that it would be okay, and note in your journal that ID shows longer name and that lender said it was fine, you should be covered."

For all the reasons I stated previously...."Jr." and no suffix at all can be two very different people - and I don't care what the lender says - that's between myself and my state laws. *I* the notary have to be satisfied that Jr. and no suffix are one and the same

Also do not subscribed to that "Association" but that's another discussion already pounded to death..

JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/21/11 11:40am
Msg #401224

s/b "do not subscribe to the opinions of that ".." sorry n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/21/11 8:32pm
Msg #401275

Jillian, notary laws have been around a lot longer

than the NNA.

"They state that docs can contain less of the name than shows on the ID but can't contain more than what shows on the ID."

Please do not be mislead by this elementary and foolish "rule" that someone created in order to put a succinct measurement determining identification so that he or she (or they) could create an illusion that he, she or they had all the answers.

The is not a legal axiom. It is pure fiction.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/21/11 4:40pm
Msg #401264

Disagree with Brenda - NO misguided beliefs by Notaries

The driver license is an official document and *it has become* the primary form of picture identification. While the original intent of the driver license may only have been to give one the ability to drive, it is TODAY (and forever more) an official form of picture identification. Try handling your banking with your Costco card, college ID, library card, or gym membership - hand one of those to the police officer who wants to see your "ID".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_license

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/21/11 9:56pm
Msg #401277

Page 8 of the CA handbook

Wikipedia is not in your handbook, so I'm going to toss that aside.

The short version of this is "Stick to "Satisfactory Evidence" and we'll all be in good shape."

Satisfactory Evidence – “Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information,
evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the
individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and (A) paper identification documents
or (B) the oath of a single credible witness or (C) the oaths of two credible witnesses under
penalty of perjury, as specified....

Lisa, I respectfully decline to debate this with you. I'm going to leave notaries who are willing to learn all they can about how to be notaries with these thoughts.

In America, a tragedy of proliferating propaganda has changed notary behavior from being public servants to the citizens of states and hence, our country, to be suspiciously expecting the sky to fall and the dam of fraud to burst open if they don't demand that a client get their ID in order so that it matches property titles. Property titles do not match ID that is slapped together by a government worker/clerk.* Notaries no longer provide the identification task, they provide the task of trying to detect fraud.

Let's talk about fraud. I know of one case of attempted fraud on loan documents and that was when an ID matched perfectly to the documents, but the signer was a man with the same name as his father, no Jr. or Sr. A sharp notary who did not robotically look for matching names caught it.

Notaries must think critically and not rely on made up more/less, official name, official ID rules to qualify their signers. Otherwise, groups of citizens in America are denied notary services for no good reason except that the scare of fraud has run amok.

The robosigners? They were in cahoots with employers who totally disrespected the notary office.

Another case of fraud that I am aware of was when a man appeared with a marriage license to a dullard notary who ratified the license without the wife being present.

One other case of fraud was when a notary was so asleep at the wheel that she notarized a mother's forged signature by her son on a document that gave him possession of his mother's funds and he had presented his own ID...one other situation was when a man presented a document that changed his wife's share of his retirement to the notary and wife was not present to sign it, but the notary notarized her signature any way. I can cite those cases because I have them in a huge body of research that I have compiled on this subject. If you want names and dates, I will provide them, but first please cite one for me.

Please cite a case of fraud when a notary was bush-wacked by a person who presented ID with a similar name that was not fake ID. I have researched this. I can't find one. I'd like to know about it if it exists.

All cases of fraud that I have turned up are the ones above noted, or those that are similar.

Where the notary is at fault, it is because the notary was neglectful of allowing the wrong person to sign even though they presented their own ID that was nothing like the right signers, or the notary was dishonest.

Show me otherwise. Perhaps then, I will go on autopilot and act against the definition of "satisfactory evidence" and do like the "match" notaries and the more/less notaries do. Notaries are given commissions to use their intelligence, not to find easy matches.

You can mark my words that if we keep this up and dully insist that "a matching ID" is the absolute infallible source, we will lose our places in business and commerce because now that the boom is over, it will be painfully obvious that we are too ignorant to understand that a driver license has nothing to do with vesting in property.

*PS 1- as far as government worker clerks I mentioned above, I am 25% a state employee. I am both a university and state employee. I know those clerks and know more about this than perhaps I am given credit for. I have testified before the legislature and talked to the legislators about notary law. My credentials may not be the most sterling and polished to make these statements, but they are not exactly without weight, either.

PS 2 - How many notaries who insist on this matching requirement have owned and been personally involved in multiple land or business transactions? Just curious.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/22/11 2:27am
Msg #401287

Brenda, calm down

Reread my post as you are responding to me about a subject I did NOT address. My post was only in response to the driver license being an official document. I said nothing whatsoever about satisfactory evidence.

<<<Lisa, I respectfully decline to debate this with you. I'm going to leave notaries who are willing to learn all they can about how to be notaries with these thoughts.>>>

Apparently, your pride is wounded and your ego is bruised. You responded to a subject I never addressed AND declared a debate where there isn't one. Hmmmm......Brenda, you seem threatened by my input.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/22/11 6:36am
Msg #401295

Re: Brenda, calm down

I've got a good case of soapboxitis.

Reply by SouthernOK on 10/22/11 12:01am
Msg #401281

I used my PADI card as picture ID once to the police. LOL! n/m