Posted by MW/VA on 10/10/11 2:06pm
Msg #400068

Learned a valuable lesson today about throwing the

notary under the bus.
I had a problem signing yesterday (a Sunday) that ended up being a no-sign.
Borrowers were very savvy & nos. weren't right. HUD of course could be adjusted during RTC, and they spoke with the LO about that. It was one of those very awkward situations where you know they're just waiting for you to say the wrong thing to convince them not to sign. Turned out the docs were dated Sept. 29th, and when they saw that on the DOT they stopped signing & said they would not proceed. I admit that I did not call the tc, but assumed it was a gigantic mistake. As it turns out, I'm told that docs for this lender are good for 30 days. The borrowers told me, however, that they weren't going to sign docs that had that date. I was very uncomfortable caught in the middle on this one. :-(
Long story short, when the relationship with the lender & tc is at stake, they're going to throw you under the bus rather than lose a valued client. I'm sure this is biz 101, and I'll know not to take it personally in the future. I've been told that the lender & borrower don't want to me be the one to close the loan. That's actually fine with me at this point.
Has anyone ever dealt with docs dated almost 2 weeks prior to the signing. It's a new one on me.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/10/11 2:36pm
Msg #400070

To MW/VA

No but Almost, one week. The borrowers didn't want to pay the "daily" interest rate for the new date so they stayed with the old date which basically kept the first payment due that the same. I questioned it but everyone, LO, Borrowers were okay with it.

Just like you mentioned though, your borrowers appeared to be looking for an excuse to NOT sign.

So sorry for the no sign but it wasn't your fault.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/10/11 4:44pm
Msg #400082

I have a form for that! Seems to go a long way towards preventing being thrown under the bus because they have to write it out in front of you (I fax or e-mail it to TC). So, it does tend to stop the they said/I said 'stuff'.

I simply have them check off that they were advised of the 3 day RTC.

That they did/did not call their LO and if not, why not. 3 lines for that one.

There are about 6 lines where they can explain in their own words why they refused to sign.

Docs being good for 30 days doesn't change the fact that they refused to sign....and is probably the reason they don't want you returning...too embarassed.

Reply by CJ on 10/10/11 5:45pm
Msg #400087

"Savvy" borrowers

I have run into borrowers where, the more "savvy" they are, the more they muck up the signing. My understanding is the notary is forbidden to tell the borrowers if they should sign or not. You can present the facts of the documents, but the borrowers have to make their own decision. I ALWAYS try to call someone. Then you can at least say, "I tried to call, but I did not have anyone's number, or they did not pick up the phone". We know that we can't sign before the date, but we MAY sign after. I present the facts:

1. You can sign, and we you get a hold of someone in the morning, and you are not happy with their explaination, you can cancel.

2. You can NOT sign, and if you find out in the morning that the docs were okay, they might have to re-draw, or at least pay for a second trip.

But Mr. Borrower: it's YOUR call. If you still feel uncomfortable signing; fine. I get to go home early.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 10/10/11 6:49pm
Msg #400092

Re: "Savvy" borrowers

"We know that we can't sign before the date, but we MAY sign after."

That is not necessarily true in all cases. It is up to the lender to specifiy what is acceptable regarding the printed dates on the documents and the actual date of the signing.

I have had docs signed before the pre-printed date although that is less common than signing after the pre-printed date. There are still many lenders who want the docs signed only on the exact date printed.

If a signer questions the date on the documents not matching the current date, it is always best to communicate with the hiring party from the signing table, if at all possible. Sometimes the answer can be found in the closing instructions if they are included with the docs.

It seems like these particular signers were looking for a reason not to complete the signing. A "Refusal to Sign" form is a good idea to protect yourself from signers who may have a different recollection of events after the fact.

Reply by CJ on 10/11/11 10:21am
Msg #400138

About the "may" . . .

No matter what, it's not the notary's place to make a decision, and it's always best to call title. I know that frequently, docs expire at midnight.

For me, when the DOT is dated in the future, I have been told every time that the docs can't be signed. When the DOT is dated for the past, and I call in, I have been told in THIS situation, the docs are still good and can be signed. I know it depends on each individual loan. That's why I said "may" as in "maybe", not "can" as in "always". But bottom line: call someone, and if you can't get a hold of someone, and the borrowers are uncomfortable signing, then it's time to pack up and leave.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/10/11 6:52pm
Msg #400093

Too much assuming going on here?

First, to MW/VA, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't assume that it was a gigantic mistake that the docs were dated 9/29. The first thing I'd look at would be the projected closing date on the HUD and was being charged in interest on the new and old loans, but even if that was wrong, I wouldn't assume it was a problem. I might try to call someone to make sure, but I've run into similar situations too many times. Most often it's been because the borrowers first didn't want to sign the docs as they were and I'm told to hold onto the docs. Sure enough several days - and yes, even weeks, later, they get enlightened or have a change of heart and they're ready to sign, using the very same docs, for the most part. The HUD will most likely be incorrect (or replaced), but in my state, it's usually "estimated" at the signing anyway. I should probably add, that this will be lender-specific. Some lenders DO have date-sensitive docs and some don't.


And to CJ's comment: "We know that we can't sign before the date, but we MAY sign after."

I have yet to have anyone show me anything in writing from any credible source that says this is true. This is another statement based purely on assumption, IMO. In fact, I've seen a good number of packages from Wells Fargo (mostly sent directly to the borrower) that have explicit instructions that the docs were to be signed and notarized "ON OR BEFORE" the document date. As long as I put the correct date on my notary certificates and the lender is OK with it, there shouldn't be a problem. I've never heard of a County Recorder having an issue with document dates being after the signature date. (I *have* heard of a tc making an issue about it with lender docs, but they never checked with the lender, as far as I know...)

If anyone has any real evidence to the contrary, I would genuinely like to see it!

Reply by MW/VA on 10/10/11 8:47pm
Msg #400108

More complicated than that--Nos. on HUD were off by $3,000.

That could be remedied since they had made a payment since the payoff was pulled. They just didn't want to send the certified check for the over-payment & wait for a refund. That wasn't an issue.
We got to the Payment letter--mistakes there, too.--escrow for water & sewer--WTH?? Again, I had them line through that & initial. When I advised them that they had the 3-day RTC to get everything corrected, I pulled that form & dates were Sept. 29--Oct. 3. Again, I explained we would line through those & correct dates. Just too many things to be corrected, and they lost confidence in the process. I could see that & no amt. of explaining was going to change that.
The problem was in my choice of words in a follow-up email to the tc. I was venting & won't ever do that. I referred to the signing as a "disaster" and that someone had "really screwed up" on this one.
I'm told that the lender reads those notes. Again--never told that the docs are good for 30 days (a total first in five years in this biz) and that someone else was privey to an email I sent to my contact at the tc. I wasn't happy being put in such a humiliating & awkward position. Again, I'm reminded about needing to be very careful about what you put in writing on the internet--and certainly won't do that again. I'm glad that they pulled me from the re-sign. I'm the kind of person that would want the chance to "make it right", but they decided otherwise. I've learned some important lessons from it & will just move on, wiser for the experience. :-)

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/10/11 8:53pm
Msg #400113

Re: More complicated than that--Nos. on HUD were off by $3,000.

"I've been told that the lender & borrower don't want to me be the one to close the loan."

First to stay on topic - I've never had a problem with dates; not sure why your borrowers were so averse to signing.

But I'm curious - since it was a no-sign, I guess I can see why the lender wants someone else to close the loan - but why the borrowers? What happened between you and the borrowers that THEY requested you not do the resign? That's disturbing that they had something against you and didn't want to see you again...

Just curious

Reply by MW/VA on 10/10/11 9:29pm
Msg #400114

I'm not going to analyze that reasoning, but I'm

guessing the LO thought I wasn't competent & was going to blow his loan. I think they didn't want me to have any further contact with the borrowers. No big deal, really.
All I was after was a chance to clear the misunderstandings. I'm PA Dutch & have that whole "pride" thing going on. It's often misinterpreted as wanting to be in control.
The last thing I said to the tc was that as long as it worked out well between the lender & borrowers--that's all that's really important. I meant that. That's what the objective always is.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/10/11 9:35pm
Msg #400116

BTW, I also told them I didn't want to be paid. While some

might think that foolish, I have a "guarantee my services" policy. If they indeed thought I was the reason the loan wasn't signed, then my guarantee was in effect. I can tell you that I never advise borrowers not to sign, and have had only a handful of no-signs through the years. Out of those, many were able to be re-signed after the issues were resolved. I definitely will not ever be put in a position like that again. It will be "call the LO, call the LO again, call the LO again, etc." Again, valuable lesson learned,

Reply by CJ on 10/11/11 10:24am
Msg #400139

Re: BTW, I also told them I didn't want to be paid.

If you didn't flub the loan, there is no reason you should not get paid. You got the docs, went out there, did your thing and they elected not to sign. Not your problem. You should get paid.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/11/11 2:05am
Msg #400126

Re: I'm not going to analyze that reasoning, but I'm

There are many potential explanations, but one possibility is that some of the screw-ups were the LO's and he threw you under the bus to take the fall for his goofs. It happens. Sometimes the best thing to do is just what you did. Take your lumps, learn whatever lessons you can from the experience and move on.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/11/11 7:04am
Msg #400129

Back to original question--has anyone ever seen docs (refi)

that are good for 30 days?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/11/11 9:04am
Msg #400132

Re: Back to original question--has anyone ever seen docs (refi)

Back in the early days - around 2000, I used to get calls from one company (that used to be a good company back then), they asked if I could do a few signings and would send me the docs and I could do them whenever I could fit them in. They were not date sensitive, and were good for 30 days. Seems that when e-mailed docs became the norm that the docs became date sensitive and had to be signed the same day.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/11/11 9:09am
Msg #400133

Re: Back to original question--has anyone ever seen docs (refi)

Yes - I have seen that with USAA loans, except they say the docs are good for the entire month (not necessarily 30 days). Here is what is on every email I get from a particular client that I do USAA for:

USAA LOAN DOCUMENTS ARE GOOD FOR THE ENTIRE MONTH. IF THE DATE ON THE DOCUMENTS IS NOT THE SAME AS THE DATE OF THE ACTUAL SIGNING, DO NOT CHANGE THE DATES. ONLY THE DATES ON THE RIGHT TO CANCEL SHOULD BE CORRECTED & INITIALED.


With that being said, I almost always, almost 100% of the time here in Virginia (same state as Marilynn), have docs that are dated for the date of the closing; and if the dates are different and I point that out, then the lender typically wants to redraw for the current date. So I can certainly understand why Marilynn would think that docs dated two weeks prior were incorrect here in VA (especially without being told that the docs were good for 30 days). Weekend closings are difficult because you often cannot get a hold of anyone at TC to help you.

Reply by Louisiana33 on 10/11/11 1:27pm
Msg #400147

Re: Back to original question--has anyone ever seen docs (refi)

Yes. I have heard of that a couple of times. Never had borrower refuse to sign.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/11/11 2:30pm
Msg #400162

Re: Back to original question--has anyone ever seen docs (refi)

Yes...very recently on either a BofA or Chase closing I read in the closing/lenders instructions that docs were good for 30 days, but very rare that I would read that deep into the instructions.

Sunday closings usually very hard to get anyone to answer a call...I always TRY to get a cell number for someone TC/ss in the rare case of taking/getting a Sunday closing.