Posted by Isabel/CA on 10/14/11 5:14pm
Msg #400568

Out of state ID cards

I've searched the board and can't find a discussion addressing this issue directly.

When you receive an out of state ID, how can you really tell its not a fake? I don't (and never had) the ID checking guide, but now am thinking I should have one.

In 7 years of being a mobile notary, I've only come across an out of state ID a handful of times.

Was assigned a structured settlement loan for a borrower who is here on business. ID is from out of state and totally beat up. It matched picture and sig was close. Guy had his Social Security card and another id in his wallet, so I felt ok.

But got me thinking....how would I really know? AND am I expected to be familiar with all these different types of ID that are acceptable? I know what handbook says (satisfactory evidence), but I'm just wondering.

Your thoughts?

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/14/11 5:27pm
Msg #400569

Yep, "satisfactory evidence" means satisfactory to the notary, after you examined the ID, photo, sig, etc.

You're not expceted to be an ID expert, and it's NOT your responsibility if someone passes a fake ID on you.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/14/11 5:28pm
Msg #400570

Get a guide, it a tool just like your state's handbook. IMO

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/14/11 5:34pm
Msg #400571

imho, I wouldn't do it. First, decent books are expensive for something that happens very rarely. Second, state DL formats change at random intervals so the odds are that 2 weeks after you buy the book, some state has changed their design anyway.

You stated that you do ask for additional ID, which means you are handling this with 'due diligence'....which is all we are required to do.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/14/11 5:48pm
Msg #400574

TO Lee and Those who don't know..

If you move to Calif and find an Apartment, home you have 60 days to get a calif Lic/ID. Lots of cities have police vehicles that have cameras mounted on bumpers that go up and down residential streets reading license plates. I have seen this first hand and asked what was it all about. this info is fed into a on board computer which checks for vehicle registration and owners.

If you have a ticket/warrant they will immediately call for a tow truck to either put a booth on your car or tow it away. If you have an out of state lic on your vehicle over a certain period of time (our police don't just eat donuts) you will be stopped and ticketed with in equipment violation. If you have been employed (yes they will ask) in Ca for over 60 days, you will/may also be cited for not changing you DL.
ID is a big thing here because of the illegal immigrations issues. Not to mention the revenue generated by the city selling seized vehicles.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/15/11 2:05am
Msg #400612

WHat James says is TRUE!!!

In many of the larger cities, they really do drive by and check this kind of thing, especially now with tight budgets. Cities and counties are looking for every possible revenue stream.

It's not just moving from out of state, either, but also reporting a change to the DMV when you move. CA law says that when you move you must report it to the DMV within 10 days.

I was pulled over last month because I had a brake light out. My DL still shows an address from 2 moves ago. The CHP officer really poured over my ID and was asking *how* I notified the DMV of the change (I did it online), if I had a change of address card with my DL (no, they tell you to write it on the back where there's a space for it), etc. I swear, most of the time was spent verifying where I lived.

When he came back, he said that they've been pushing address verification and educating people about updating their records within 10 days of moving. My records were fine, of course...but dang, it felt really creepy to be questioned about something so dumb. I suppose he didn't have any other reason to mess with me aside from telling me to fix the brake light.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 10/14/11 10:54pm
Msg #400600

Lee: That's why I've never purchased one. They seem like they will be obsolete the minute they are printed. With 50 states and other territories, one of them has got to be changing by the time I would need the book.

Like I said, I have been doing this a while and only had out of state ID a handful of times.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 10/14/11 5:42pm
Msg #400573

UPDATE!!!!!

This has been nagging at me. Something just didn't look right, so I called the state's Motor Vehicles Dept and asked them what their ID should look like.

They were very helpful. They told me that the borrower in question does NOT HAVE valid ID through their MVD. They told me the ID number in question expired 5 years ago and they have no renewal on file.

SO IT WAS A FAKE!!! I called the loan officer immediately and left her a message. Signing was day before yesterday so hopefully, they can deal with the issue in a timely way.

Reply by Belinda/CA on 10/14/11 6:04pm
Msg #400576

Keep us posted if you ever hear anything that comes of this.

Reply by Riley/FL on 10/14/11 7:09pm
Msg #400579

I'm curious, which state was it from? I assumed every DL has an expiration date.

Reply by Karla/OR on 10/14/11 7:59pm
Msg #400582

Nice follow up Isabel! n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/15/11 5:15pm
Msg #400665

*They were very helpful. They told me that the borrower in question does NOT HAVE valid ID through their MVD. They told me the ID number in question expired 5 years ago and they have no renewal on file.

SO IT WAS A FAKE!!!*

I still believe that you were in the right to accept the ID if it was presented to you and it appeared to be valid ID. If it was a settlement, then it was not a borrower, right?

You still do not have proof that it was a fake. I'm sorry, and I mean this without sarcasm, but calling an agency is not in our realm of identifying a signer. Furthermore, I am not sure that the agency that you called is able to give you the information that they did. In my humble opinion, the right agency to have called would have been the local police dept. If you suspect a crime of fraud and/or forgery, it should be reported to the local authorities.

My subsequent remarks are not directed against you, Isabel, at all. You were following your instincts.

However, in my opinion, notaries are too often looking to discredit signers. I'm pretty hard core about the right to notary services. I feel that if you cannot pass a signer after he or she hands over ID that is acceptable in your state, then you need to call the police and report an attempted crime. We don't get to send them scrambling for notary-acceptable name matches. People in this country are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Signers should be presumed truthful until proven otherwise.

Notaries have been inundated with messages about fraud. Fraud comes from notaries who are in bed with criminals, such as robo-signers and notaries who are participating in fraud on purpose.

Fake IDs are very good now. Notaries cannot be responsible for knowing how to spot a fake from every state.

It's not a perfect system, but it is all we've got at the moment.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/15/11 5:36pm
Msg #400666

I wish I had said that

The only thing I would add to what Brenda said is that Texas is much looser in requirements on notaries than other jurisdictions. But the principle remains the same: The role of a notary is to identify the signer, not to identify fraud. IF, in reasonably identifying the signer a fraud is detected, then so much the better. But the notary can't be faulted if it is not detected.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/15/11 7:16pm
Msg #400668

Re: I wish I had said that

Thank you, Hugh.

However, you say, "The only thing I would add to what Brenda said is that Texas is much looser in requirements on notaries than other jurisdictions." I have been researching this for some time now and I am not sure about that. I think Texas is about the same as the rest. What I have found is that California, Florida, and in fact, most states require "satisfactory evidence". California defines satisfactory evidence in such a way that is quite clear to me that it upholds the innocent until proven guilty axiom:

"'Satisfactory Evidence' means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and [lists acceptable ID documents and credible witnesses]."

Florida defines "satisfactory evidence" almost identically. "b) For the purposes of this subsection, "satisfactory evidence" means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person whose signature is to be notarized is not the person he or she claims to be and any one of the following..." [lists methods of acceptable ID]

I do not pretend to be a legal authority on any kind of law, but I can editorialize on what I read and I can draw conclusions based on what other accredited experts have said. I believe that there have been too many overzealous trainers and those would would love to sell more fraud detecting tools who have taught students both more and less than using "satisfactory evidence" to determine the identification of signers.

Fortunately, no notary publication published by a state office that I am aware of has gone further than to state what the law says, that a notary must have "satisfactory evidence."

From my windshield survey, Vermont stands out in my mind as the state that puts the heaviest burden on their notaries about ID. I'm too lazy right now to go look it up, so don't quote me.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/14/11 10:02pm
Msg #400595

While I've accepted various IDs from other states, I've not had a client I was suspicious of. However, since you've experienced this situation, I think it would be prudent to get a guidebook of all 50 state's DLs.

Not to change the subject, but this is a prime reason I *ASK* for a thumbprint for signatures notarized that do not require one. If a fake ID gets past me, a thumbprint will definitely prove who did (or did not) appear before me. If the signer objects to my request, the issue is closed and I simply write "Request Denied" inside the thumbprint box.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 10/14/11 10:52pm
Msg #400599

Re: Out of state ID cards --UPDATE

For the person who asked, yes, the ID card I was shown at the signing DID have an expiration date of 10/31/11 so was "supposedly" current. However, because I just had a gut instinct and the license just didn't look quite right (very beat up, the magnetic stripe on back was scratched up, the print just looked a bit "off") I asked the guy if this was his only current form of ID. I just had a gut instinct telling me something was not right. He had all the other stuff though, description matched, SS card was presented, sigs seemed to be ok, so I thought maybe I was being paranoid. His DL must have expired and for some reason he created a fake one to replace it. Who knows why?

As I have never had this happen to me either, I called the CA SOS to ask if I had any additional responsibilities to report this to anyone. SOS said that I did not. The signer presented me with a fake ID and that is their illegal act. She said there is no way for me to have known that was a fake. She said I was "fine" and didn't have to worry about it. She said as long as the notary fulfills their duty at the time and is provided with "satisfactory evidence" at the time, that's all we are obligated to.

LKT: I, too, ALWAYS fingerprint everyone no matter what they are having notarized so his fingerprint is in my journal. I've never had anyone object to the fingerprint either.

I still haven't heard back from the Acct Executive yet. I'm sure she is NOT going to be happy about this. Ugh.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/15/11 12:22am
Msg #400609

Betcha a buck that it will fund.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 10/15/11 12:19pm
Msg #400645

Well, heres the thing. The reason I dug into this a little deeper was because they wanted me to go BACK out there to have borrower sign the rest of the structured settlement paperwork on Tuesday.
Because of that, I felt the need to press this a little farther. I'm so glad I did. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

But you're probably right in that they will just find another notary who will be unaware of the situation and have that person sign the borrower.

Many Account Executives turn blind eyes to this kind of stuff to get paid.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/15/11 1:50am
Msg #400611

I spring for the handbook, personally. Yes, they are out of date every year...but I see a LOT of out of state IDs because I live in an area with a lot of military. I use it all the time and have found it very helpful.

I think my biggest concern of all of this was, "Guy had his Social Security card and another id in his wallet, so I felt ok."

You shouldn't be relying on SS cards and other IDs for anything...not in California anyway. If you're not satisfied with the ID presented, you should ask for another one acceptable by state law.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 10/15/11 12:12pm
Msg #400644

FAKE Out of state ID

Marian, you are right. I wasn't completely "satisfied" with that ID alone, but couldn't quite put my finger on WHY. Picture matched, sig matched and description matched. I didn't feel comfortable accusing him of presenting me with a fake ID because I couldn't say for certain that it was a fake. With the additional documentation that he presented to me showing same sig & so forth, I felt ok, but not great.

Total lesson learned that is for sure!!

But I respect your opinion Marian as I have read many of your posts and feel that you know what you're talking about. No sarcasm intended here at all when I ask, What would you have done in my situation?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/15/11 8:08am
Msg #400618

I posted an article a few months back , about phoney State

IDs purchased on the internet from China. Mostly used for underage drinking.
Just one more thing to worry about.
If you get bad vibes, you can allways asked for additional identification.
This is more a a problem for general notary work, because lenders now fully vet a potential
mortgage borrower.